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Jan Williamson

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Barry, I guess I did not understand.

If I use a more bendable wood for the stringers, would the laminated mahogany concept work for the stright keel?

The mahogany is heavier, and I would not mind covering it up with paint.

Because there are three layers, I can flip the inside one and the seams would not be together.

What you think?

at the current prices, money is a problem. There is nothing that fits in to the 1 or 2 dollar flex.

I am considering the plywood keel avenue.

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Here is another idea.

Eden Saw in Port Townsend said their local boat builders use a lumber calle purple heart. Adam said it is very hard, holds fasteners like no other wood, and practically will not rot. He knows about the weekender, and said he would go with that over fir because of the qualities of the wood. Stringers would need to be out of fir or southern pine because they bend easier.

Just throwing out ideas. By the way, the Purple Heart lumber can be had at all of the lengths and widths we need, and is $3.54 a ft.

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Gaylen,

Ray is correct in his assessment of Purple Heart. It would make a fine keel. It is hard and you will need to take shallower passes when cutting your keel parts, but that is just a matter of patience.

I used some on a small boat years ago for frames and a smaller keelson. At the time it was just laying around and they couldn't sell it. So I got a bargain. It held up very well, and finished beautifully.

I've used it in some other applicatons (furniture), since and love the stuff.

There isn't any problem with using mahogany and edge gluing it. It helps if you have a jointer to run it thru to assure that you have square straight edges. But it isn't critical that you do. You can use biscuits such as Jan is using and it will align just fine and I would recommend that you do. You can rent a biscuit joiner from any tool rental place. Again, you aren't building a piece of furniture and it will be laminated so it doesn't need to be perfect. You just want good glue squeeze out when you are assembling it. That way you know that any small voids will have glue in them rather than being voids. You also know that you have good surface contact that way.

If you are cutting with a table saw, try to cut adjoining pieces so that you flip one piece over end for end so that any small variations in angle are lessened when you assemble them.

I've seen keels assembled from small blocks of wood laminated together, all major assemblies in most wooden boats are done that way.

So I wouldn't be too worried or too critical about it.

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Man, am I relieved :)

You see, I don't want to get on here and just raise hell all the time with a lot of stupid questions. Thanks a lot for your patience.

The mahogany and the purple heartwood are the same price. The difference is that the mahogany is rough cut and would need planing on several different aspects before I could glue.

The Purple Heartwood is all at the right sizes and lengths already, and I think that changing a saw blade and making bigger holes beats all the planing and gluing involved with mahogany. However, the information I have gleaned here is priceless, and I can use it in all the other aspects of the boat. The mahogany will most definately wind up topside in bright.

Since I am going with the slatted seats and open seat bottoms, do you think the purple heartwood would make strong seat slats? Would the mahogany hold up to the weight as well? 1x4x5' would be how I would cut the seat lumber down. Well, you have seen the diagrams and pictures so that is what I am doing.

The reason I am doing so much now, is that I need to have the picture in my head when I start. That is how I work. I have to visulize the product when finished, then work toward that. It helps me figure out the problems while getting there.

Well, thanks again.

Ordering the Weldwood plastic resin glue this week as well. Wood on Saturday. Dust next week :D

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"Patience my dear, patience! " That is my favorite saying according to my daughter. It has helped all thru the kids growing up and I think it has actually had some effect.

Don't worry about asking questions. Capt. Jake has the record for that. :roll:

The only dumb question is the one that you don't ask that results in a costly mistake. Time or material/cost. Most anything can be fixed if you understand the challenge. Better to ask and clarify than to have to do it over.

Second favorite saying according to my daughter and youngest son:

"If you have the time to do it over, then why didn't you have the time to do it right the first time?"

My father was a very patient person, my mother even more so because she put up with him and the kids. Some of that rubbed off on me and if nothing else I am patient.

I too am a person that has good visualization skills and order flow visualization skills. It has helped immensely over the years. I pre-play all the steps several times along with alternatives and am generally right on the money with the results. A real blessing as far as I am concerned.

I know that it is difficult for a lot of people to visualize several steps ahead or even the step they are working on. But the wonderful thing about these great little boats is that they will still float. It doesn't matter how critical or not you are with workmanship, they will still float and sail if you follow the instructions (generally).

How long they will last is another issue altogether. Material selection and workmanship pay off there in a big way. Paying attention to the details and taking your time (patience) pays off in huge dividends in my mind.

They don't have to look like a piece of fine funiture to bring enjoyment. I often feel that the boats that are enjoyed the most and used the most are the ones that get banged around a little now and then and the finish isn't perfect. But they are well maintained.

So....keep on asking questions. Lots of good information from a lot of builders here with no egos getting in the way.

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Since you are talking about Mahogany, I thought I might throw this link in.(also since most of us play with epoxy...)

Over at the WB forum, they are having a little discussion on skin irritation. I have always been really lucky and seem never to be allergic or sensitized to anything, but unfortunatly others have problems here and there...

I'm not an alarmist, I just feel that any info on safety discussions is good to pass on, use it as you wish....

here's the link to the thread:

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008015

B.

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Actually, I was going to use the mahogany to make the seat slats themselves. I am not sure how I am going to do the seat backs yet. Most likely something attached to the deck top to lean against.

Did we ever come to a solution about screwing the keel? Since I am going to use the HARD wood purple heartwood, I would like to know just how many screws it might take to do the job. The video uses nails. We kinda talked about nails not doing the job. How many screws will do the job?

Spaced how far apart, and how many rows, etc, etc. I am assuming that nails will not work well in the purple wood. :wink:

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Well, if it is warped or cupped, it will stay in the rack. Eden Saw does their own stuff, so I can get it cut to my specks, and it will be stright before I buy it.

That's not a lot of screws, so not a problem. Will most likely paint the keel, and do the mahogany on topside in brite.

How much bigger of a hole do I need to use. If the screws are #8 then...the hole should be..?

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I'm afraid I have to disagree with Ray on going up a size on the pilot holes and countersinks. You won't have that much thread in the wood if you do. You can do a couple things to make the screws easier to place:

Drag the screws across a bar of soap or candle wax before placing them or you can spread them out a little and give them a quick spray with WD-40. Not a heavy coat, just a light spray over them and they will be a lot easier to drive. One thing to remember is that you have to pull the pieces tightly together to have a good joint, but if you are using epoxy instead of the Urea/resin Weldwood, you can't pull them too tight or you get too much squeezed out and the joint will be too weak. You want some even squeeze out if possible so you know it is filling all the small voids, etc.

I would prime and paint the purpleheart for the keel. Ray is correct, it looses its brilliance and character when exposed to the elements and gets kinda ashen gray with blotches. Not pretty after awhile. But it is dense, rot resistant, and heavier. All good characteristics for your keel.

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Some of this is pretty confusing...

Epoxy has good filling qualities, but you can't squeeze too tight. Weldwood can be squeezed tight but doesn't have the filling qualities? Which grips the best? :cry:

Got to use fiberglass, but epoxy can be somewhat of a hazard to use.

Epoxy is hard to sand and is hard on the lungs....

I am really looking for a consensus in these areas. The area concerning types of screws is confusing as well. I think GOLD is the best but a little spendy and could be too soft :wink:

Also, it there a type of saw blade that will work better for this hard wood? Would buying two cheap saw blades then throwing them away before I start the bottom and deck be a good thing to do?

I plan to use Maranti (sp) for the bottom and sides and Okumi (sp) for the deck and cabin. See anything wrong with this combo?

One last question before I buy the wood this weekend...

would the plain sawed Southern Yellow Pine work for stringers? Or should these also be CVG stock? Eden Saw said that I would not have problem because of the narrow widths and many screws and glue.

Saturday is going to be a big day.. :D

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There are advocates of using epoxy for everything. And they have good valid reasons for doing so. I agree with most all of them. The Weldwood works well is easy to use and quite a bit less expensive. Both have a temperature range that works best for them, Weldwoods is a little broader and will still setup and cure in colder temps. Weldwood allows you to simply wash out the brush and the container and keep on going. You can also keep some excess overnight in the refrigerator and still use it the next day.

Epoxy has excellent bonding characteristics, superior to Weldwood in most every respect. But it also requires that it have a layer of epoxy between the faces being bonded, not much, but a layer, too much pressure and it gets too thin to bond effectively. Too much and you scrap or sand off the excess.

You can use either and have good results. I used Weldwood for the majority of the assembly on my Weekender and am pleased with the bonding qualities. I also used epoxy and fillers where there needed to be larger areas filled and shaped. I assembled the rudder box with epoxy as well as some of the other small parts.

You can use galvanized screws and not have a problem, Stainless would be a better choice for exposure to salt water around here. Most of the builders use phillips head screws, but square drive is easier to work with if you have to remove them and easier to drive them into harder woods.

You will find that when you get to the stringers and the side assemblies, that the screws are just exactly the right length if you don't counter sink them. If you do, you are going to want to use screws a quarter inch shorter. You will probably find that you will use a lot of 3/4" screws and they are not on the bill of materials.

Sanding Epoxy has its own list of health hazards. Some people have a reaction to the epoxy dust and need to wear respirators and protective clothing to work with it. Same with Fiberglass and epoxy or polyester resin. Vinylester has less exposure issues associated with it.

You can use epoxy and sand or use Bondo and have an easier time sanding it. I chose the Bondo route because I have a sensitivity to Epoxy and with my eye surgeries, I don't need any problems that I can avoid.

The thin kerf "Piranha" Saw blades are farily reasonable and cut extremely well. Cheap blades are more trouble than the savings would warrant.

No problem with cutting stringers from SYP even plain sawn, just try to find the straightest grain possible. And preferrably knot free.

No problem with using Meranti and Okume (sp) as you are planning. You are covering them on the outside with glass and painting them on the inside.

Yes, there are many builders choices to make, some of them confusing and with many different opinions hard to sort out sometimes.

Consider this though, a lot of the opinions expressed on the forums are based upon regional availability of material. We are blessed to have a strong marine industry and good suppliers located in our area. With a lot of good knowledge and interest in making your project successful as well. Their business depends upon satisfied customers.

In a lot of the areas of the country, building a boat of any type is kind of an unusual experience for anyone. So going to a lumberyard and asking about marine anything is out of their range of experience. Same with a Lowes or Home Depot. They cater to the home remodeler/builder with small projects. They stock what sells for those uses and it is unusual for a salesperson to have any experience in what we are doing or in the application of the products that they sell for marine use.

A firm such as Eden Saw is a really great resource for us. I'd willingly pay a little more for the product, because they aren't going to steer you wrong.

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So,

What you are saying is that with the weldwood glue, you cannot squeez the boards too close together, while when using epoxy, you need to have a layer of the epoxy between the boards.

Right? :?:

So if one wants to make sure boards are together (keel or otherwise) one may use "C" clamps to bring everything together prior to screwing when using Weldwood...

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Gaylen,

I'm not sure you got that right...

WeldWood

Weldwood is a very thin glue and it does not fill gaps, so you need the wood to be VERY close... so squeeze the tar out of it.

Epoxy

Epoxy is a thicker glue, and it DOES fill gaps. It does not work well if you sqeeze too much out.... so squeeze, but not too much.

So, how much is too much?

Well, that is a difficult question. The idea is quite the same for both: You want to leave a layer of glue between the two layers of wood. The glue layer only being the thickness of one glue molecule, minimum. However that is nearly impossible. So, in practice, the layer is a several molecules thick.

Weldwood bonds better to wood than to itself, which is why it is not a good gap-filling glue, and why you want the glue layer to be thiner, in terms of number of molecules... further, it is a thin glue. So, you will want to squeeze the tar out of it to make a thin layer of glue consisting of as few molecules as possible, but enough to fully bond.

Epoxy bonds better to itself than to wood. Therefore it is a Good gap-filling glue. Which means that as long as you have full contact, it will bond well. Because it is a thick glue molecule, you don't want to squeeze too much of it out. So, a couple molecules thickness is the minimum. But it does better with greater thicknesses.

I am not sure about the exact size of the molecules, but I would guess that epoxy is about 3 to 5 times thicker than weldwood. It could be much greater than that, I don't know...

So, in effect...

The thicker the Weldwood layer, the weeker the bond.

The thicker the Epoxy layer, the stronger the bond.

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Well, we have certainly straightend all of that out so it is clear.

Solution,

Clamp them, predrill the holes, screw them together. Doesn't really matter if you use Weldwood or Epoxy. Flattest possible boards and clamp them tight but not so tight as to squeeze all the glue out of the sides. If they aren't really flat, then Epoxy will probably be better to use than Weldwood.

If they are really flat and true:

If you are in the epoxy camp, then use epoxy. If you are in the Weldwood camp, then use the Weldwood.

Either way the keel will get put together and it will be really solid.

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Well that settles that, I'm going to rubberband the pieces together. I made a model airplane out of ballism that way once and it flew nicely :D I'll put a screw in the nose so that it will glide in the wind... :wink:

Think I will Epoxy the Keel. I will "slather" the sides with epoxy and make sure I don't screw them too tight. If I use Epoxy, then I am assuming I will not have to use C clamps.

The important thing for me is that I am going to make sure I have good stright boards before I leave the Eden Saw. Most likely, less than a week will go by from the time I bring the lumber home to the time I am gluing up the pieces.

"Stainless screws and Epoxy" Sounds like another good book title.

OK, now tell me where I can get a can of Epoxy without having to wait for winter for it to come in the mail. Gather it all together, cut it out, glue it up, photo it and present it to the jury. That's what I am ready to do.

Does Home Depot carry the stuff? Lumbermans? Or is there no other way to get it but mail order...? :?

Thanks for your help. I enjoy the details, as it gives good direction, and the over simplification was a joy to read.

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When you mix a charge of epoxy you also have to spread it out to avoid it smoking your pot if you make a good sized batch.

Hold on here. You're telling me that if I'm not careful, my epoxy is going to get into my stash and parade around my garaged all smoked up?

Geez - I thought I was just going to have to watch out for slivers :lol:

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Gaylen,

I got 3 gallon kit from http://www.raka.com after reading several comparisons on the Net. The cost and coloring over time were among the best.

However, I have been encapsulating as I go, and I think I need 3 more gallons!

Tom,

What Ray was talking about is epoxy will get hot, very hot, hot enough to burn you! The way to avoid it is to mix small batches and/or spread it out quickly.

I usually make about an ounce of epoxy at a time, sometimes a little more. but when I do, I move quickly, especially if I am using fast hardner. I have lost the pot about 3 times now. The first time was quite a shock... I had about 2 ounces (about an inch and a half in the plastic drinking cup) it started getting hotter and hotter, until I couldn't hold it anymore. I set it down, and within 2 minutes it had melted the mixing cup into a big plastic block. A couple hours later I had a clear hockey puck with warped plastic coming out of it. Hard as a rock!

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I too would endorse the use of the Raka Epoxy. That is a good way to go and a well known product with good solid infomation at the source. Larry is familiar with what you are building and will keep you on the right track. Just ask about the various hardners, as they have varying temp ranges for use. Also about batch size.

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Is the Epoxy glue different from the stuff I will be using when I put on the glass?

If so, how much will I need of the glue just to do the Keel?

When I glass the bottom how much will that take. I am not sure I found a thread on this subject, however I am sure it is out there. :!:

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