Does size matter?

[Guest]

I think in all fairness here, this forum was set up to discuss several specific designs that exist of a boat trailer and gets wet on weekends. These are not boat models. I think in keeping with this spirit, promoting a wide range of modifications to these boats, does harm to the overall boat and discredits both the designer and provider of this site. This is more than just a chat forum for building wooden boats. You may wish to join another site of like minds, such as :

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php

You should right at home with your ballast stones, iron mallets, six months of sanding, caulking , and linseed oil decks.

There are plenty of strong opinions, and daily doses of flames, to wet your appetite of banter and discourse..

[TexasPhil]

Oyster,

Wow, I am surprised!

I have seen, and participated, and even originated many off-topic discussions here on this forum. All this time, Frank has participated in many of these as well.

I don't think that someone listing his qualifications, which include building models, is that far off topic, afterall, we have had a topic on baby poop, at least the models are of boats.

I also don't see anything about this forum being specific to one boat, one designer, or even one type of boat, but the general discussion of boat building. A discusson of how things have been done in the past fits right in.

I found the information on ballast stones quite interesting.

[Robert Cox]

Russell, thank you for your responce.

I think there is one problem with most of this discusion. Although these boats look traditional they are built anything but in a traditional way. The Vacationer with a 21 ft. LOD has only two internal bulkheads and NO frames. If it where built traditionally it would have a frame at least every 24" and in many cases closer than that. When you have internal framing the boat will be stiffer, heavier and capable of handling a greater displacement.

I must be honest and confess to having considered scaling up the Vacationer, but had already considerd the need to add internal framing to do it. My biggest consern would be the need to add a ballasted keel. You need more than a plywood floor to hang a ballast keel from. I quickly discontinued my fantacy after seeing the Bahama Mama. It already had the framing, ballasted keel, was built of plywood and best of all; Looks like a Vacationer. Why redesign the wheel when someone has already improved upon it.

The point is, why try modifying a design to fit a particular criteria when there is already a design that meets that criteria. Especially when modifying a design may make it unsafe.

I don't beleive Oyster meant that your opinions where off topic, but that the type of construction your fomiliur with is more common over at the Wooden boat forum.

I still beleive that we would better serve Tom by telling him the possable flaws with modifying but be supportive in what ever he desides. Which if you look at most of the replies here, this is exactly what we've done.

Tom, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the size and capability of the Vacationer. I've had two Weekender builders come and look at my Vacationer and the first words out of their mouths upon seeing it: "Wow, it's so big." I think you'll find the Vac. capable of handling your family at this time. As the kids get older it may get a little tighter but we all know that as kids get older they find other interests. They always do.

So, after all of this, try the stock Vacationer first. It's an easy build and will get you on the water rather quickly. If after sailing the Vacationer you feel you need something bigger then look at building something to suit. At least while you build that one you'll have something to sail.

Bob

[Florin {VACATIONER}]

Tom,

Welcome aboard!

As Barry had mentioned in his post, we did modify the interior of the Vac quite a bit. Mainly the cabin, and a bit in the cockpit.

We just wanted to customize the boat to make it as comfortable according to our needs.

We have 5 children under the age of 14 and a large 100lb landlubber dog.

The Stevensons Vac just hapened to meet our criteria. Of course no matter what boat you build or buy will never be big enough, nor will it be the perfect boat, there's always SOMETHING you're missing, and I think this is due to our human nature.

As just about everything else, this boat was a compromise to us. The cabin and cockpit is large enough, but let's be realistic, even with the improvements we've done by adding berths, etc it will never accomodate all of us onboard overnight. There's just not enough space. We learned to live with the idea that we'll have to stowe a pop tent in there somewhere and some of us will have to sleep on the ground in the tent. The berth we have inside is about the size of a queen sized bed. No way could you have 7 persons in there and get a good night's sleep. The cockpit is too tight for 7 people as well. We'll just have to deal with the situation when we get to it, some of us will have to sit on the forward deck, some down below in the cabin.

All in all, we think we made a good choice and are happy with the end result even though we haven't got her wet just yet. Anything bigger would have cost too much and would not be trailerable.

The gals and guys on the forum are a great bunch and helped us a lot. This also made building a pleasant experience we will not forget.

Enjoy building!

Florin

[Guest]

Oyster' date='

Wow, I am surprised!

I have seen, and participated, and even originated many off-topic discussions here on this forum. All this time, Frank has participated in many of these as well.

I don't think that someone listing his qualifications, which include building models, is that far off topic, afterall, we have had a topic on baby poop, at least the models are of boats.

I also don't see anything about this forum being specific to one boat, one designer, or even one type of boat, but the general discussion of boat building. A discusson of how things have been done in the past fits right in.

I found the information on ballast stones quite interesting.[/quote']

Off topic subjects range from many things including baby poop. I did find this line particulally degrading to the amount of work that has gone into more than just four boats of this design.

Posted by Russell:

"It's not rocket science and now with everyone not just well read but saturated with information no one with the desire to build a boat can lack from knowledge. "

After the repeated posts in this thread from Russell, in essence saying you can do almost anything to these boats, and totally disregard what the past history has given credence to, in regards to weight, and construction technigues pertaining to long term safety issues, I did find it a bit much to continue attempting to alter this design. This was my read on it, IMHO. Maybe my coffee was mixed wrong. :wink: But I stand beind everything I post here.

Maybe I am bit conservative when it comes to issues. I am not sure if you are familiar with my background. I am not a naval engineer or anything of sorts. But this makes me shiver with cold sweats, when I read people suggesting without hesitation to defy the track record as exists here. I will forgo further comment. Feel free to send me a meesage if you wish to further discuss this issue.

[Russell Sova]

The boat we were using until this year was a flat bottomed keel boat. I wouldn't sail it without stone ballast. The ballst was put in between the bottom and the deck. Once the deck was put in the stone can't move. If an extra frame or two needs to be put in in this area it'll only add a couple of pounds weight. The ballast will be under the waterline and 40 lbs. of stone in a 16ft boat goes a long way. 100lbs. in a 21ft boat would really help. I've tried it and it works. You can see the difference right away as your boat doesn't heel as much and just seems more stiff.

[TexasPhil]

Oyster,

I agree with some of your issues, specifically, not to change the structure of the boat, but I think we all have made some changes to the plans. Some more than cosmetic, but for the most part, nothing too drastic to the structure. I think the most drastic has been to completely remove the cabin and make it an open boat. Loosing the bulkhead is pretty substantial, and is a structural modification.

However, we have all followed the subject of ballast bulbs, so Russell's advice on rock ballast is not off topic. However, since there is no space between the bottom of the boat and the deck, his point is moot, for the Stevenson's boats. So the only real choices are to add below or above the bottom panels.

I do agree with Russell that it is not rocket science, but I agree with you that drastic changes to the structure is, simply put, a very bad idea. I think others have pointed out that fact. I think Tom can do what he wants, but I hope he is conservative when it comes to the safety of his wife and kids.... if he wants to risk his own life... I have no problems with it.

My main concern was that your post seemed to me to be a "you're not welcome on this board anymore.... so go away" message. I have never seen a post by any one else even remotely resembling a dismissal, and I was rather shocked to see such a thing.

The fact that there are so many different ideas and view points posted here is one of the reasons that I have always enjoyed participating. I know that many of my viewpoints are not shared by the majority, and in some positions, I am all alone. I don't always agree with everything posted here, but I like to read other people's views and ideas.

But shunning someone is not acceptable.

Russell, to that point, for whatever value you place on it as I have no official capacity here, I say you are as welcome here as I am. I enjoy your point of view, even if I don't agree with all your points.

[Guest Anonymous]

I believe this was his first post.

Russell Sova wrote:

Go for it Tom. I doubt if any of the nay sayers has ever tried it. Get rid of the goofy beakhead while your at it. Extend the length, add some stone ballast, put it in burlap bags if you want and remove it or put it down low and ceil over it. It might take a season or two fooling around with the rig to get it right but so what? You can use tarps for sails so there is very little cost involved. If anyone in your family doesn't like your boat just throw them overboard (with a life jacket on).

I believe this was his response to my reasoned request of clarity.

Russell Sova

Landlubber

Joined: 28 Jul 2003

Posts: 9

Location: Lake County, Ohio

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:00 am Post subject: Does size matter?

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Nope, I wasn't kidding. You guys take yourselves way too seriously. I too live right next to Lake Erie. I have all my life. There is a guy who built a flat raft for fishing that has a chair and a trolling motor on it. When it's flat calm it looks like a alot of fun. Regarding boat design, many boats that are over 25ft. between pperpendiculars are 8ft. wide. Tom, you could also add some pig iron to the keel, say, as a shoe on the outside. Have fun.......Still sailing on the the "dangerous" lakes.

I believe this is true case history provided by Frank.

Frank Hagan

Site Admin

Joined: 24 Dec 2002

Posts: 640

Location: Oxnard, CA

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Does size matter?

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Russell Sova wrote:

Go for it Tom. I doubt if any of the nay sayers has ever tried it. Get rid of the goofy beakhead while your at it. Extend the length, add some stone ballast, put it in burlap bags if you want and remove it or put it down low and ceil over it. It might take a season or two fooling around with the rig to get it right but so what? You can use tarps for sails so there is very little cost involved. If anyone in your family doesn't like your boat just throw them overboard (with a life jacket on).

Actually, the reason the Stevenson's say not to scale the Vacationer up is because they have done it. And it failed structurally. They determined the stringer-glue-and-screw method is not strong enough for the stresses when you get this large. When I interviewed the Stevensons for the premier issue of the BYYB's on-line magazine, The Gaff Rig, Peter mentions the project and how it failed (it was in the first or second issue for the BYYB members who can access it and tell us the exact quote from Peter; I'm not allowed to re-post it without permission, of course).

The Princess Sharpie 26' or 22' would be a much better choice if you are going to this scale; its designed for it, and Graham ("Designer" on the B&B Forum here) is always willing to answer questions. The construction is not only stronger with the tack-and-tape method, but the internal bulkheads are designed by a NA to allow the use of plywood for a vessel this large.

_________________

Pssst! Wanna buy a website?

I would hope that this board, including you, would provide better and more thought out response to anyone, concerning issues, that may play into jepordizing ones safety and the safety of 5.7 family members than these post. After almost fifty responses to an inquiry, this thread is more than just a passing thing of what color looks the best on the boat. When you add that to the ideas of "Farmer Brown can just go out and build anything, with avaliable materials because the Romans did it" , this may have brought out the point that appeared too blunt to some of you.

You see, the Romans, Greeks and the Scandinavians built with trees for framing of their timbers, with very little concern for issues we build boats today. We worry about weight, costs of materials and the avaliabilty of items in different regions of the countries. In the sale of boat plans, these issues are taken into consideration when marketing them to the average citizen. Limits are placed upon scantlings and adhering to them is critical in the wide range of building abilites when a person purchases them. This is very important to discuss these issues with the person that does the plans . In this case I believe this was done.

Reckless and careless endangerment should not be the order of the day.

[TexasPhil]

Guest (Is that you Oyster?),

Reckless and careless endangerment should not be the order of the day

I whole heartily agree with you. I think Russell's posts contain a LOT of bad advice. I hope Tom does not decide to build a bigger vacationer. And if he does, he sails on it alone. And for that matter, I hope he has some good life insurance to take care of his family.

However, my objection is with telling Russell, or any one, to leave.

I am sorry if I was too subtle or got lost among all the text in the first two posts, but that is my objection. I think Frank is the only one authorized to kick someone out of here, but I don't think he would do that. Frank seems to be ok with free speech and all that, even if he disagrees with the view point.

I do not agree with Russell's suggestion on just building whatever, but he is entitled to express his own view point. It is also completely acceptable for everyone else to point out the problems with doing that. But it is not acceptable to tell him to go away. I think that breaks Frank's one rule: "Be nice"

[Arnie Eaton]

I'm building a Vacationer. The only change I thought would be safe was to move the rear bulkhead forward 12" therefore making the cockpit area a little larger. This change did not change the basic design at all. The basic shape remains sound. I also think with 5.7 kids you will have more then anough room with the cockpit and cabin. In fact 6 small people can seat in the cockpit with room to spare. Each seat in my Vac is 6' long so that's 12' total seating. The cabin space is also larger than needed, almost 8 feet from bulkhead to bulkhead with a 6.5 width. Goodluck with your Vacationer and be sure to ask for help if you should need it.

[Guest]

It didn't log me in again. I never ask anyone to leave. After conveying his desire for the old style building, as exhibited here,:

Russell Sova Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 7:55 am Post subject: Does size matter

In answer to Frank's question I've built 4 boats, the last two of my own design. The last one is a radius bilge. The one before was a flat bottomed full keel boat. I used the urea glue "oh, you mean yellow glue?", and every other kind in 9 years of building. Building and sailing is my hobby and passion. Before that I was a semi-professional ship modeler. I've got two models in museums, one the British Consolate office and one in a law office in NY City. I've been studying boats and plans for 18 years and I believe that the more traditional the building technique the better. I started out using the same techniques used to build Stevenson boats. Water always somehow can get into a hull so it's best to be as thorogh as possible. Fast and cheap does cut it on the water. I was drawn to the Stevenson boats by their salty appearance but I believe that carpenters etc. can surely build more strength into the hull. I wasn't kidding about stone ballast. It's been used for hundreds of years. The British and scandinavian boat builders use "beach shingle", flat rocks from the shore. Moreover many, many boats for many, many years have been built by farmers who farmed in the summer and took their families out fishing in the winter. They sunk their boats all summer to keep them swollen. They used no paper plans and their boats survived for a long time. Use the right wood, use common sense and you can produce a boat that is safe, fun, fast etc. It's not rocket science and now with everyone not just well read but saturated with information no one with the desire to build a boat can lack from knowledge. Especially someone like Tom who has planned for this since Childhood. I'll bet he already picked out the name

I suggested this site as a means and my humble opinon without any rude remarks, as to where there this existed, and explained it . Please do not assume anything here.

Oyster Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:04 am Post subject:

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I think in all fairness here, this forum was set up to discuss several specific designs that exist of a boat trailer and gets wet on weekends. These are not boat models. I think in keeping with this spirit, promoting a wide range of modifications to these boats, does harm to the overall boat and discredits both the designer and provider of this site. This is more than just a chat forum for building wooden boats. You may wish to join another site of like minds, such as :

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php

You should right at home with your ballast stones, iron mallets, six months of sanding, caulking , and linseed oil decks.

There are plenty of strong opinions, and daily doses of flames, to wet your appetite of banter and discourse

Please, if you have any other beef with me, take this offline with me. This does distract from the normal exchange of ideas. Thank you.

[Frank Hagan]

In answer to Frank's question I've built 4 boats' date=' the last two of my own design. The last one is a radius bilge. The one before was a flat bottomed full keel boat. I used the urea glue "oh, you mean yellow glue[/quote']

Well, I've never heard anyone call it "yellow glue" before, prehaps because its a light tan that dries brown. But I suppose there could be other formulations out there that are "yellow," or, like banannas, my sources of urea-formaldahyde glue are only giving me over-ripe glue.

I inferred from your message you were talking about yellow carpenter's glue, and from the context, it seemed like a slam against the builders here. I can see now you didn't mean it that way, because you also use the same material. :wink:

Anyway, as long as Tom has the info on the structural problems with scaling up the Vacationer, he can then make his own decision.

[Tom Holder]

Geez, guys, I didn't mean to start this much of a squabble. It's not like I wanted to scale it up to 39' or anything.

I'm also somewhat offended that some of you imply I would take my kids out to sea in a leaky kettle. I believe I mentioned previously that I am an experienced canoist and kayaker and that my kids are all water rats. I don't go out without my PFD and neither do the kids. I've been out on Lake Superior in a 17 foot canoe in 8-10' swells. I know what I'm doing on the water - I've just never built a sailboat before.

As for my engineering skills, I was being somewhat modest - what I meant was there's little chance I could produce something as pretty as Chris Gerkin but I rebuild cars, built an 1240 sq. ft. addition on my house, heck, I jumped off the roof with a homebuilt pair of wings when I was 13 and actually went further out than I did down.

So I hope we can put an end to this thread if I summarize it thusly:

• 29 feet is too long given the current construction method
  No one else has tried scaling it up
  You can pretty much muck with the interior configuration as long as the bulkheads stay in the same spots
  Many people feel strongly about the overall design appearance (as do I)
  Most people feel the Vactioner is big enough for my planned sailing habits
  Try not to drown your kids

I appreciate your concerns for the new guy and I have already learned a lot from the posts on this site. But I'm not exactly a babe in the woods. Or water as it were.

If that's fair, let's all move on please.

[Remod]

Well ended, Tom!

[Stuart Benbow]

Stuart' date='

Do you have a copy of Forty wooden boats or any one else. My friend Lars, has one so I'll barrow it next week on vacation on the Vacationer. But I was just curious about the Mystic Sharpie's bottom, flat, V or round, flat I suppose, thus sharpie.

I guess I would have to change jobs and move to the coast for this one. But I don't care, let them cry at work. :cry: Boats are more important, where I work is small potatoes as for as I am concerned. :roll:[/quote']

Mike,

I've posted the 2-page details of the 32' Mystic Sharpie as a single image in my gallery here on Frank's site. I'm having trouble viewing graphical information from this site on my home system (buttons, pictures etc) though it all looks fine from the work computer, so I can't really try putting a link to the graphic here and see if it's working. If you can't find it, I'll post a link from work tomorrow.

[Stuart Benbow]