Does size matter?

[Guest]

I wish you well in your quest for getting on the water as a family. That is a big undertaking for you. But with you approach and desire for so long to do this, it will be done. By all means, allow your children to enjoy the experience when they are young. They will have talltales and fond memories when they get old to pass along to their family and friends.

May I make a suggestion to you that will allow you to receive a lot of smiles from the kids now. You see, at that age, it is very hard to say to them, that a bunch of wood will take forever and a day, for a boat to float. So in the mean time, build them a small canoe or a birdwatcher kayak, as on the B&B site. This will introduce them to the water by using these boats in a protected place. They will learn boat handling, wind and currents. Along with the water part of it, building a quick fleet wil allow them, also, to understand the process and time to do a project of a larger magnitude. Its amazing how much you both learn about each other and about the end result of a larger boat.

Check out these easy to build birders. They are stable for a small craft, and will ice memories for then, for the rest of their lives. Good luck.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/pad.htm

[Barry Pyeatt]

Tom,

I would agree with Oyster on that subject. I was only 10- when I built my first sailboat with the help of my Dad. It was a 12' Sailing Surfboard built from plywood. A project plan offered by Boy's Life Magazine. A lot like the Sunfish of today, but wood. Lateen sail, wooden centerboard, rudder and tiller.

I learned a lot about tool usage, lofting, safety while building, patience, basically most of the same skills that are used to build a wooden boat today.

But I didn't have the use of a skill saw or electric drill. it was all hand tools.

The boat is still in the family today, some 50 years later, been painted a lot, new rigging and it still has the screwdriver rattling around inside that I left there when I was building it. Taught a lot of kids to sail and explore small lakes and ponds over the years.

Have your kids help you build a small boat for them to use, it will be a memory that will last a lifetime.

[Mike Pennington]

Tom,

I was looking for a means to post a private message, but it looks like I forgot how. My curiosity has the best of me at this time, so I have to ask about your statement publicly, "Mr. Gerkin however should not be allowed to post on this board."

Do you mean Chris Gerkin? I looked back through some of the posts by Chris, I even went over to BYYB to see if I missed something :roll:

Is Chris, a friend of yours and you are just giving the guy a Razz? Or has the man slighted you in some way?

I have been communicating with Chris for awhile now, and never once have I found him to be negative, rude or condescending. Just the opposite in my opinion. I think he is a nice guy, sure has been nice to me, nor have I ever heard (or read) of him cutting anyone down.

So what gives? :? Please don't think I am jumping you for stating your opinion, well maybe I am in away, but I would like to know the reason for your statement? Is the guy a secret domestic terrorist? :shock:

Could you clarify your statement, please.

Mike Pennington

Builder of a Vacationer

[Russell Sova]

Don't forget your life jackets.

[Guest Tom Holder]

Mr. Frechette is correct. Chris Gerkin has built a beautiful craft and, being the kind of personality I am, I would always be trying to build something similar. His boat is a work of art.

Although, take this with a grain of salt please, I'm not sold on the monster dolphin wacker or whatever you call it.

I once saw a wooden sailboat of similar craftsmanship and it has stuck in my mind for years. Basically, I like building with wood and he's better at it than I am

[Guest]

I, too, have the same problem conveying humor in type. So I reread it several times and then came to the conclusion that it was satire. As you stated, you had followed the forum while deployed, and shared some nice words to it, upon your return. If you followed the saga of Capt. Jake and his never ending quest of fun and excitement of sanding, this forum does produce artists. And we all know, artists are a different breed.

On that note, I live beside the "Graveyard of the Atlantic" and still boat in it, but care not to have a floating tombstone and flowers placed in my honor, as of yet. :wink:

[Mike Pennington]

All right Tom,

8) I wasn't trying to put you on the spot :wink: Like I said Curiosity!

We may be a bunch of Pirates at heart, and some Builders are a bit more tallented than others. But like Chris once said, he is just better at hiding his mistakes. :roll:

I think you would be happy with the Vacationer, it is a good starter boat and there are lots of other Builders with good advice here, and on BYYB.

The Vacationer has lots of room for small fry, I think it would make a great Family boat. Very stable, the Vacationer, is a friendly boat to handle. I can't think of a better way to raise your kids to enjoy life than to teach them to sail.

Mike

[Russell Sova]

Tom, there are alot of sharpie boats 22 to 32 ft. that you can get plans to. Some are quite handsome like the Princess boats mentioned, Your passion will shorten the building time. It litterally takes on a life of it's own. I poke fun at these Stevenson boats because these "safety" conscious builders of boat(s) use YELLOW GLUE. Most boat bilders shun such nonsense. And their larger version failed structurally......hmm.

[Guest Tom Holder]

To be frank, I have looked around at other designs but I really like the "old-timey" look of the Stephenson's designs. Others I have seen make me think I should just go out and buy a fiberglas hull and start from there. :?

If there are alternatives with the same kind of "Arrrrr matey" flavour, I would appreciate any information you might have.

Thanks.

[Stuart Benbow]

32' Mystic Sharpie

This 32' double-ended sharpie ketch will provide the amateur builder with a shoal-draft cruising boat of simple construction.

LOA - 32' 1"

LWL - 29' 4"

Beam - 8'

Draft (cb up) - 1' 3"

(cb down) - 4' 3"

Displ. - 5,570 lbs.

Sail Area - 470 sq. ft.

Lofting is required

Skill level: Intermediate

Plans include 4 sheets.

Study plans are show in Forty Wooden Boats.

Granted, it's a much bigger project, which means more expensive, and a longer build. The plans are $195.00, and can be purchased through woodenboat.com

[buddha hat]

Wow - that is a nice boat. I'll keep looking around.

I just pulled a 12 foot fiberglas rowboat out of a pond at a farmers up the road from me this morning. I'm gonna work with the kids on repairing it and getting it in the water - it'll hold all of us (sans the wife) for this summer and next I think.

I would like to build something that I can get in the water in the next two years that I can enjoy for a while. Then start on something bigger for when the kids start to leave the nest. I'm an ok woodworker but between the job, hockey, dance lessons, field trips etc :scatter:

How's that for realistic - probably the same dream as everyone else on this board

[Robert Cox]

Russel, that's at least twice I've read a post by you that has slighted these boats or the people that build them. Is there a constructive reason your here or are you here to raise some hackels. Now maybe, just maybe, I'm reading more into your posts than is actually there but I don't think so.

I've yet to hear of anyone using reagular yellow glue on these boats. The larger version that Frank was talking about was the proto-type Vacationer built by the Stevensons. It was 29 ft. long on deck with an 8 ft. beam. It sailed poorly and failed structurally do to the lack of internal framing to support the plywood. And, the Stevensons use urea glue. Commonly referred to as Weldwood plastic resin here on the forum.

The biggest reason you will hear people on this forum nay saying a particular change is when it involves structural changes. If you were to do a survey, you would find that most of our boats have changes that vary from the plans. These changes are usually cosmetic and we were smart enough to know that we shouldn't toy with the basic structure. We are not PA's here. We are amatures. I beleive it would be morally wrong for us to tell someone to make a change such as this when it's not our family who will be sailing on this great floating experiment.

You will find many years of experiance with boats on this board and some of these people are much wiser than your average beginner. I'll not mention any names here but suffice to say that when they give their opinion I for one will listen. You are new here and have no history that we know of with these boats. If you would give us some of your back ground and experiance with boats, we may be inclined to listen to your opinions.

Bob

[Craig]

Tom if you have decided to build a Vac we are here to help you if we can. We ae not nay sayers, we have just been down the road and wish to save you the cost and work we wasted trying unworkable mods and construction techniques. The group contains professional carpenters, cabinet makers, engineers ,housewives and everything in between. Our ages vary as well. You are in good company, or bad depending on perspective, welcome aboard.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Tom,

Since you have decided upon the Vacationeer as your "Yacht of choice", I would recommend that you look at what Florin has done with the interior of his Vacationeer. He has changed things a bit (quite a bit) on the interior to accommodate his family. Good planning and well thought out changes that I believe he mocked up prior to actually building them.

A very livable solution in a reasonable sized project. His approach to the storage areas is in my thinking absolutely great. Good ideas and his family has been an essential part of the planning, building and finishing process.

Since your children are still small in physical stature, the Vacationeer can work for you if you plan out how you are going to use it. It is as Mike and several others have mentioned, quite a stable boat. Easy to handle and not all that complicated to build for a novice.

You don't have to go the route of Chris to have a great project, although we are all admirers of his craftsmanship and his planning.

We welcome you and there is a lot of good information represented here, some very creative solutions to common challenges. Also a lot of experience in a lot of areas. Many of the contributors are not first time builders and they have done a lot of the trial and error playing around with design modifications. A lot of the contributors have used non-conventional, non-traditional building techniques and their boats still float and they get a lot of enjoyment from them.

And regardless of your building style or how long it takes, this group respects the effort that goes into the project and the steps and turmoil that accompany it. Lots of support here, and little bickering between contributors. Just remember that the only dumb question is the one that causes you to need to do it over because you didn't ask first.

Lots of varying opinions and ideas of how to accomplish the the same thing. Most very good suggestions, some totally off the wall, but sincere. Some prove out to work well, others, well...what can I say. We live and learn. The choice is always yours to make and the rest of us respect that. The one thing I have seen is that no one puts anyone else down (except perhaps in good fun). And of course there are always a couple that dish it out just as well as they receive it. No Identities will be revealed. :roll:

Judging from your website, you will fit right in. So jump in and get your feet wet right up to your chin.

[Guest]

One thing I would offer as a way to readdress the bold approach and ideas that you may have or envision for yourself, would be to allow for the plans to come, study them out, make a list state your case from your point of view and allow for replies to roll in. AS it is stated, the only dumb comment or a dumb question that exist is one that is not asked by anyone here.

I still spend time reading some of the older posts, and also participated in the old BYYB board with a few comments myself. You are never to old to learn ideas, even though you may never used them yourself. Ideas will allow for you to make things work for your specific needs, by combining joint efforts from previous construction mistakes and updates to improve the same products. AS in the computer industry, people work everyday to create a more user friendly keyboard, browsers and website programs to streamline work and make it more enjoyable for everyone. That is what this site has done, with few flame wars. Thats unheard of with many forums.

As far as what I have built, I am still waiting for the perfect boat to copy. You guys get busy. Hurry up, every chance you get, here, okay!!!!

[Tom Holder]

Thanks for the kind words. As I posted at the start of this thread I've been coming hear for a long time just to look at the pictures and plan the night away. I hope in time I can contribute some useful knowledge/experience to the board.

As for my website, unfortunately it doesn't reflect what I am currently doing to pay the bills.

buddhahat.com started out as what is described on the site (haphazardly) as I tried through my friendship with the owner of www.communityzero.com to add a charitable element to the commercial community side. I have a few schoolboards, some churches etc. but these are all "private" sites. It's slow going even though it's free! Can't even give it away.

And as you know free doesn't pay well - so I prostitute myself out to Big Oil. Maybe I want to build a sailboat to quiet my conscience? :oops:

[Frank Hagan]

Tom' date=' there are alot of sharpie boats 22 to 32 ft. that you can get plans to. Some are quite handsome like the Princess boats mentioned, Your passion will shorten the building time. It litterally takes on a life of it's own. I poke fun at these Stevenson boats because these "safety" conscious builders of boat(s) use YELLOW GLUE. Most boat bilders shun such nonsense. And their larger version failed structurally......hmm.[/quote']

I don't know of anyone who used yellow glue, although some of the European builders use polyurethane glues. That's because boats are built on that side of the pond professionally with polyurethane glues.

The plans, developed in the 1980s, call for urea-formaldehyde glue ("Plastic Resin Glue") which was accepted for boat building at the time. It has fallen out of favor for the better formulations of polyurethanes and epoxies, and Dap no longer sells it as marine glue. But it works fine, and is still used among many old timers. It is essentially "waterproof" by the 1980 standards. It certainly is more waterproof than caulking in older boats. Its just a more recent traditional material.

Most of us are pro-modification (as are the Stevensons). But before someone spends the $2500 - $4000 he will spend on a "stretched" version of the Vacationer, I felt it important he know what the designers say about it. They have tried it, and it failed due to the stresses. They built it using the materials and techniques the plans call for on the regular Vacationer, so we already know that the building technique does not scale up that large. So, do you think we should NOT tell him that? I think that would violate our One Rule™.

But hey, its his money, and after he has the facts if he wants to go ahead, we'll share in the process vicariously. We'll support him, and if he makes it work, more power to him.

I also have a concern about a larger boat without ballast. The Weekender like most sailing dinghys uses the helmsman and crew as movable ballast. That becomes harder as you scale up, and I suspect the size of the Vacationer is already pushing the envelope as far as unballasted designs go. Add another 3 or 4 feet? I think I would be lookign to add ballast, because you can't get far enough out on the rail to keep a hull that large from turning.

[Mike Pennington]

Stuart,

Do you have a copy of Forty wooden boats or any one else. My friend Lars, has one so I'll barrow it next week on vacation on the Vacationer. But I was just curious about the Mystic Sharpie's bottom, flat, V or round, flat I suppose, thus sharpie.

I guess I would have to change jobs and move to the coast for this one. But I don't care, let them cry at work. :cry: Boats are more important, where I work is small potatoes as for as I am concerned. :roll:

[Russell Sova]

In answer to Frank's question I've built 4 boats, the last two of my own design. The last one is a radius bilge. The one before was a flat bottomed full keel boat. I used the urea glue "oh, you mean yellow glue?", and every other kind in 9 years of building. Building and sailing is my hobby and passion. Before that I was a semi-professional ship modeler. I've got two models in museums, one the British Consolate office and one in a law office in NY City. I've been studying boats and plans for 18 years and I believe that the more traditional the building technique the better. I started out using the same techniques used to build Stevenson boats. Water always somehow can get into a hull so it's best to be as thorogh as possible. Fast and cheap does cut it on the water. I was drawn to the Stevenson boats by their salty appearance but I believe that carpenters etc. can surely build more strength into the hull. I wasn't kidding about stone ballast. It's been used for hundreds of years. The British and scandinavian boat builders use "beach shingle", flat rocks from the shore. Moreover many, many boats for many, many years have been built by farmers who farmed in the summer and took their families out fishing in the winter. They sunk their boats all summer to keep them swollen. They used no paper plans and their boats survived for a long time. Use the right wood, use common sense and you can produce a boat that is safe, fun, fast etc. It's not rocket science and now with everyone not just well read but saturated with information no one with the desire to build a boat can lack from knowledge. Especially someone like Tom who has planned for this since Childhood. I'll bet he already picked out the name.

[Russell Sova]

Did I say Frank's question I meant Robert, sorry.