Cat Ketch Wayfarer

[Rick G]

Hi folks, been a long time since I was here last.  Trying to decide what to do with my 16' wood Wayfarer sloop the other evening I had the wild hare (hair?) of an idea that maybe I could change her sail plan to cat ketch from sloop, and this forum seemed a good place to begin.  A few years back I had the immense pleasure to sail aboard a CS 17 at the Chesapeake Maritime Museum Small Craft gathering and can't stop thinking I'd rather sail a cat ketch than a sloop rig.  I have a set of CS 17 plans, but am not able to get one going in the near future, and, I have the Wayfarer.  Would anyone be so kind as to air their opinions, set me on a path, or tell me I'm nuts?

[tom151]

I have a set of CS 17 plans, but am not able to get one going in the near future, and, I have the Wayfarer.  Would anyone be so kind as to air their opinions, set me on a path, or tell me I'm nuts?

Hmmm.... Love the Wayfarer woodies! As different as they are, the CS17 and Wayfarer seem to be kind of similar in their weight, sail area, and general dimensions.

Are you thinking of maybe building the masts (and a set of polytarp sails?) to the CS 17 dimensions and plugging them into the Wayfarer?

To quick-test the feasibility, try to overlay the 1:1 scaled location of the CS17 mast/sails onto the Wayfarer hull by aligning the leading edge of their centerboards. That approximately indicates where the mast bases/partners would need to be added to the Wayfarer and will outline the magnitude of the problem associated with the modifications needed.

Would be very interesting to see how the rounder-bilged Wayfarer behaves compared to the square-sided CS design if using the same rig.

I hope you hear from some of the serious sailor/builders from this list - they'l undoubtedly have some specifics that would be useful - it sounds so interesting that I'm subscribing to this thread  

Best of luck,

TomH

[Tom Lathrop]

To quick-test the feasibility, try to overlay the 1:1 scaled location of the CS17 mast/sails onto the Wayfarer hull by aligning the leading edge of their centerboards. That approximately indicates where the mast bases/partners would need to be added to the Wayfarer and will outline the magnitude of the problem associated with the modifications needed.

Looks like a  good plan to start with.

Did we not have a similar request on the forum lately?

[ChrisObee]

To quick-test the feasibility, try to overlay the 1:1 scaled location of the CS17 mast/sails onto the Wayfarer hull by aligning the leading edge of their centerboards. That approximately indicates where the mast bases/partners would need to be added to the Wayfarer and will outline the magnitude of the problem associated with the modifications needed.

Looks like a  good plan to start with.

Did we not have a similar request on the forum lately?

I'd think at a minimum you would want a designer to look at the mast steps and partners and how they were attached to the hull to be sure that structurally the hull would support the additions.  The move from stayed to unstayed being perhaps more troublesome than the rest. 

[Tom Lathrop]

I'd think at a minimum you would want a designer to look at the mast steps and partners and how they were attached to the hull to be sure that structurally the hull would support the additions.   The move from stayed to unstayed being perhaps more troublesome than the rest. 

Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.

Moral:  How are you going to learn if you don't get experience?  With CS17 plans on hand, the structural needs for unstayed masts should be fairly clear. 

[Rick G]

Thanks guys, I knew I could count on you all for some input.  My idea is to make a pair of CS 17 masts and order sails from Graham to answer the first question.  That is if the transformation can be proven to be feasible.  I will still pursue building a CS 17 in the future and having the driving force already secured would give me a small leg up.

I have an attachment to this Wayfarer (#8019, "Loon"), even have a signed copy of Frank Dye's book, "Ocean Crossing Wayfarer", so I don't want to attempt this w/o seriously proving it out first.  Two of my concerns have been voiced already, that is confirming that the CS 17 masts/sails will provide a balanced helm, and of course, that the structural soundness can be had.  This determination is way out of my realm of knowledge, so it will probably be some fun learning about all the intricacies involved.

I bought Loon from Ron Mueller (now Wayland Marine) who used to offer Wayfarer kits when he was living in Arvada, Colorado.  This particular hull was built by he and a friend of his, was for sale, and needed some TLC.  It was the late 80's, I was living in Goshen, Indiana at the time, drove to Arvada in January on the promise of our local weatherman that I had a "window of opportunity", but ended up towing her home in a full Midwest Blizzard.  If my memory serves me, Ron included the construction binder and some plans with her which I will now have to locate.  I do some CAD work for a couple small architectural millwork firms in my area that are too small to employ a full time draftsman, so have my own seat of AutoCad.  I will attempt to use that and Graham's plans to get the lay of the CS 17 rig drawn and then if I can find the Wayfarer items, draw them and see how they stack up.  Lacking them, I'll just have to measure Loon and go from there.  This will be a start in any event!

[ChrisObee]

With CS17 plans on hand, the structural needs for unstayed masts should be fairly clear. 

I suppose that's my timid nature rearing its ugly head but it would seem a bad issue to misjudge. 

[tom151]

With CS17 plans on hand, the structural needs for unstayed masts should be fairly clear. 

I suppose that's my timid nature rearing its ugly head but it would seem a bad issue to misjudge. 

For two boats with similar length, width, & weight - rounded bilges such as the "W" will normally produce less stability / righting moment - which is what translates to smaller loads on the mast and it's supports.

So it's reasonable to consider that the engineering of the CS17 masts & support structure would be more than what is needed for a less stable boast (my own reasoning and certainly not 'certified', although it is true I may be certifiable).

If it's your first boat build - keep in mind (not easy to do) that wood/epoxy/glass construction is a much stronger technique than it looks.

And... if you built it you can fix it.

TomH

[John Turpin]

You might do some experimenting with poly tarp sails before you invest in sail cloth.  You may need to make some adjustments before you decide on your optimal sail cut.

[Rick G]

Tom H, thanks for that reassurance!  I

[ChrisObee]

Chris, I appreciate your cautions

Don't pay too much attention to me I'm no expert, just cautious by nature. 

[DISTELTK]

I made pollytarp sails for my BRS 15.  They turned out pretty good.

Search for poyytarp sails and you will find a lot of info.

Duckworks and Polysail are two good sources with some detail info on making proper shape to the sails.  I used a curved mast edge and foot.  Some suggest building a dart from the tack  toward the center of effort.

Tom D.

[Rick G]

Thanks Tom, I'm overwhelmed with the amount of info there now is on the net since I was last involved in building a boat. 

The Mid-Atlantic Small boat Festival at the CBMM was a great time, always good to be able to swap ideas with like minded people.  I'm happy to report that there were two CS-17's and one CS-20 in the water.  Was able to speak to both CS-17 owners and get some photos of both rigs; one sleeved sails on wooden masts (bird's mouth), the other slides on aluminum 3-section masts.  Spoke to one of the museum staff who gave me the short lesson in rig balance but this has whet my appetite for more understanding.  So, I'm off to locate my still-boxed-from-the-last-move boat books where I hope to find my copy of John Gardner's "Classic Small Craft You Can build" where there is supposed to be a good chapter on the things that affect sail boat balance.