Ultimate Lumber Discussion

[Howard]

Well....maybe not that extreme, but in recent thread some good information was passed along about lumber. I think it might be helpful to me and others to expand on what was said. Reference to the previous posts here:

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4426&start=25

Two things I came away from that were:

1. Barry can select wood for me any day.

2. If we could find a way to bottle Bob Smalser, we could sell it!

Anyway, I thought that in addition to talking about how wood was cut at the mills, it would be helpful to look at attributes so when I or others go to buy wood, we know what to look for.

To start things off, here are some pictures of some wood I picked up recently. Remember, I'm in the midwest where the yards only stock construction lumber for homebuilding. This is Doug Fir, and it was stamped as "Select".

The first picture is of the endgrain. Obviously, all three boards were plain sawn. The bottom one hadn't warped until well over a week after it was home, but warp it did. And warp they will. After that Bob Smalzer lesson linked to above, we can almost imagine the history this tree went through. Starved for light in a dense planting early, then a cutting opened things up and it took off.

The following pictures answer some of what I was thinking when I selected these boards. I'm not perfect and these boards were not either. Remember, I went through the whole stack to find these three (and put the stack back and covered it when I was done). The rest had knots, splits, large growth rings, etc. When I picked these, It was intended that all would be ripped down, so I was only looking for clear, tight grained segments from each board. So they have all started out as plain sawn, but the way I am going to use them, the segments will resemble rift sawn when I'm done.

The split on the middle one only went in a foot, and stopped at a knot. Some following shots of the same board can be seen. A big section of that board has 25 to 30 rings to the inch and a large part of it is clear.

On the warped bottom board, the sapwood on the left runs about half the length of the board and runs out. About half that board is clear for the entire length of the board on either side of the center, which may get ripped down also.

Hoping to get a boom and birdsmouth mast for a Spindrift, stem and stem cap for a Princess, possibly a rudder and CB for a Princess and who knows how many cleats and short stringers from the various parts. Kinda like cutting up a hog. Lots of parts will be coming from these three boards.

These boards were all 10 footers. I normally would have been looking at 16 or 18 footers, but I couldn't haul anything that long.

Where help would come from the group is to point out where I went wrong. Be brutal, I can take it. How else will I learn???

Or....if you have an economical source of good, quarter or rift sawn lumber, or other tricks to get it, this is what I am looking for. Again, it would be helpful to me and others when we go shopping for lumber. Knowing what it is exactly we are looking for and at.

[Ken_Potts]

Howard,

I still like those boards for ripping to smaller pieces (I'm sure I'm not as discriminating as they come, though). I believe the warped one warped because the pith (the very center of the tree) is in the board.

If those boards were mine I'd be making thin lumber out of them and using the pithy parts for when I needed little scraps for clamping or something.

I once turned a little goblet out of a scrap with the pith running right down the stem just so I could watch the whole thing bend It was kinda neat.

[BobSmalser]

Look at the size of the ring cups in the center. Those are pith boards. You can also see it on the board surface...two qsawn sections bisected by a flatsawn section.

These shouldn't even have been sold, IMO. On my mill, I cut out all that pith and tight-cupped surrounding wood and give it away for firewood. I mill short of it, cut it out as a 3"-wide board, and begin the next board beyond it.

It's those itty-bitty cups that cause the warping. Plus some piths spiral in the tree, and you can't see that when milling boxed heart timbers....so all boxed heart wood is a crap shoot as to whether it'll remain straight.

But all's not lost. Simply rip out those tight cups and use the clean but still slightly crooked wood with staighter stock in your birdsmoth spar. The straight wood'll pull it in and the epoxy will lockt is all in straight. Maybe 2-3 warped pieces out of 8 will work fine...and stagger them inthe assembly, eh?

[Arnie Eaton]

I live in western Montana. Now we don't have any large DF trees in this area, so, when I was ready to build my birdsmouth mast, (Vacationer), I ordered from my local lumber yard some DF for the mast. What I got about a week later was four pieces of 1X6, two were 18 feet long and two were 20 feet long. Clear of ANY defects and the cost was , with shipping, $104.00. I really didn't expect to get such nice stuff, but apparently this wood came from northern Canada or from Alaska. I still have one board plus a 1X3 pc. I have never sean such nice stuff sense I left the Seattle area many years ago. I would really talk to the manager of any lumber yard most anywhere and see if he (or she) would go to the same extreme as the local guy did for me. Sure did pay off for me anyway. Could be just luck as well.

[Howard]

Bob:

That is pith wood on both the middle and bottom boards. Those sections will be cut out. This kind of lumber works for me as I am going to rip it up. I don't know how it works in houses, as these boards will warp and cup the same in the house as they did here.

I do look at and consider boards like the middle one that have splits or one small bad place in it, but the rest good. Builders will cull those, but I can cut the bad spot out.

For some of us, it's what we have to work with so wetry and make due.

Arnie....I asked about getting better stuff and they just shake their head. "This is what we've got". Still better than HD or Lowes, which don't even have DF. There it's all S-P-F or treated.

Out of curiosity, I'm planning on stopping at some of the smaller yards in towns of 5,000 or less. Some of those are family owned places. They may have some really old stuff laying around. It happens.

BTW...these boards were $16 each.

[Barry Pyeatt]

I really hate to put it quite so bluntly because this is a mixed group of people.

But it is really hard go find good boat building lumber at the Box stores. They only get what they pay for and they get it cheap or they don't get it at all. It is plain economics for them and their customer base is the backyard builder/remodeler and the small contractors. So...why would we go looking for boat building wood when their clientel is looking for the cheapest way to build a deck or playhouse.

I've not found a small family run lumberyard in my travels around the country or living in both the midwest and the east that once they understood what you were looking for couldn't or wouldn't get what you wanted or needed. And generally not at terribly exhorbant pricing. Yes you might have to pay some additional for shipping/handling costs but if you want to build a nice project the cost ot the wood is the minor part of it.

There isn't anything wrong with the three boards you picked out, unless you wanted to build a boat with them. I too wouldn't have picked them unless I was going to only use the quarter sawn portions of the boards. The rest is just as Bob stated, too questionable and unreliable.

Also ring counts are made on the end cuts of the wood not along the cut side surfaces since they are more than likely cut on an angle and not accurate that way.

If I were picking wood for any one project I would be really picky too. After all it is my investment, I have to live with it and repair it down the road and I like getting a long, long lifespan out of my investments. I'm not into building short term useage projects. But I'm not into a "throw away? society model either. I recycle good wood; just because it has been used for other things doesn't mean it still isn't good wood. But if it has to be bent, I would much prefer a fresher piece of lumber.

We've kinda gotten stuck on Douglas Fir here in this topic and unfortunately it just isn't available everywhere. There are other choices but the same criteria still pertains to selection.

On a Weekender, Vacationer or Pocket Cruiser, with a laminated, wide board keel and stem, the wood selection is the biggest issue for many of the builders. How to find a good piece of lumber that is not out of sight in pricing. I know that there have been a whole lot of builders that have resorted to wood types that really are not totally good choices for boat building simply because they couldn't find 16' or longer 12" wide stock in their local outlets.

Some have made the decision to go with anything they could find that was reasonably priced and not too badly warped. Believeing that laminating it with epoxy and some good tightly placed screws would hold it all together and it wouldn't move on them. And if they applied glass over it then they would be protected and it would be just fine.

Or I've seen some use those nice red oak planks or white pine planks or poplar. Why, they are flat and long and available without looking any further. I would encourage them to look further, a bit harder and start letting their fingers do the walking. I've found that once you let a lumberyard know that you are building a boat and will be shopping there for what they can provide, they get really friendly. Not necessarily the guy on the phone but if they carry what you want and you visit and talk to a supervisor or the manager about what you are doing, it is amazing what a lot of them will do to get your business. And they will help you to get what you need and want. Don't go in and act as if you know all about their business. But have enough reading and basic knowledge that you can converse with them and explain why you want this or that. If they don't have it, they will often get it for you if you are patient enough to let them do it. I know that is hard for a lot of us in this "got to have it yesterday world" but it works if you let it.

Old Pennsylvania Dutch saying, "Too soon old, too late smart" aften applies to all of us. Good things can happen to those that will allow them to and be patient enough to let them happen.

I've pulled shelving out of libraries that are being remodeled or torn down. Took siding off of barns, or houses and beams that could be reused. I've invested a lot in recycling lumber for my own use. But most often it is time not money.

I'm not like Bob Smalser and able to mill my own lumber, but I do visit mills when I need something special and they cut it for me. Then I'm patient enough to realize that it will be awhile before I can use it until it air dries.

If your boards are twisting, cupping and bending within a few days after taking them home, they were pretty green when the dealer got them most likely and they were probably not the boards you want for boat building anyway. Cuz when you begin to rip them they are going to get worse before they get better.

[Howard]

Barry....don't forget, I asked for it.

I agree with you on quality. Price wasn't the issue with me. I asked about getting clear stuff and got the cold shoulder. So I'm going to try a lot of other places.

And on these boards, I knew I was buying parts....not boards. I'll harvest what I can and the rest goes into the scrap pile.

And remember, I intended for this to be a learning experience for myself and others on what to look for, what to avoid, and hopefully where we can still find some decent lumber to work with. So keep blasting away folks.

[Barry Pyeatt]

They call it "White Wood" primarily because they don't know what species of wood they are going to get when they order it. It has become a "catchall" phrase for anything that the mills need to unload that they can get a "buy" on.

You are a little more lucky in the Northeast since you might get some nice Eastern Spruce now and then. Isn't Stika but it still is better than a lot of the other choices. :wink:

[Howard]

I presume you are using the spruce for spars? Is that all? As I understand it, it's light and strong enough for spars. Not all that rot resistent for internal structural (better to use Doug Fir). I keep coming back to DF, due to the strength and structural aspects of it.

I have a piece of Sitka Spruce from Edensaw. It was purchased for the boom, but at the cost of it (absurd), it's being held back. It may become a set of oars someday, or else be put into a safe deposit box. Anyway, it was a lesson learned on the cost of shipping high end boat construction lumber to the Midwest. Those of you with access to boat grade lumber at reasonable prices are fortunate.

But from the standpoint of boat construction lumber, what about Spruce as construction lumber? I used western red cedar on the Spindrift for internal frames, cleats, etc. Mainly for the weight savings and rot resistance.

I had planned on using cypress due to the rot resistance, but later found out or heard that, no it won't rot, but it will soak up water, swell and pop glue joints when it gets wet.

[BobSmalser]

Here's a Forester/Sawyer's forum with 4000 members:

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php

Here's an older one even larger:

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/sawdry.pl

Both have "wanted" and "find a sawyer" sections. But the best way is to log on and ask outright for a reference.

You can often get half again the wood at twice the quality by buying green or partially seasoned and seasoning it yourself....or airdried, if you insist. Moreover, if I were selling lumber, and you were willing to back your truck up to my mill and offbear from the log to your truck, saving me bundling, banding, stacking and stickering chores, you'd get your wood for double the Scribner BF value. Scribner is the West Coast lumber scale, and for DF right now that would be less than 2 bucks a BF for clear, riftsawn select...and less than 3 bucks for cedar.

But I ain't gonna even talk to you for less than a full-sized truck load, if you get my drift.

[Pipefitter]

I found a good way to get any kind of wood you want from your local lumber yard. If you know of someone having a house built or make friends with someone that is a contractor that would order it maybe for a few bucks,doesn't hurt to ask. These people are buying windows,doors,siding,drywall maybe from a local reputable lumberyard. The salesman is extra resourceful when his commission is based on 60k worth of materials sales. You can order a whole skid worth of prime lumber if you want to without paying all the trucking and having a commercial address to drop it, since they can just add it to the delivery truck. Buddy of mine is a foreman for a GC and he told me just order what I want,if it isn't what it's supposed to be,he will ship it back. Lumber choices are poor here too it seems or rediculously priced. As it was,it would have paid me to take a uhaul truck out of state then to rely on anyone from the box stores.

[Barry Pyeatt]

I sincerely hope that no one gets me wrong here. I'm an advocate of using the best materials you can get to build these particular boats. If it is only locally available materials, then so be it. I think any of us will try to help anyone to pick out materials that will be a good value and last without costing the household budget more than it can stand.

I'm also a firm believer that there is no substitute for marine plywood if available. If not then any of us will again try to help anyone to decide on something that will work and provide good results.

I would hate to see someone pass on building one of these Pocket yachts because of what may seem like a discussion on using ONLY the best period.

There have been a whole lot of boats built and totally enjoyed by builders from scraps of lumber and ACX plywood. Properly maintained and with a little care and attention to building, they will last a long time and give good performance. But that takes a bit of additional attention to the needs of a Wooden boat.

Oyster builds a whole boat from scraps he dredges up from various places. He knows what he can do and what for the most part what he is set out to accomplish. Any of us could learn a great deal by just standing around him while he builds a project.

Some of the more experienced builders, have been there many times over and will share what works for them snd what doesn't. Many times this is a regional thing or building for a client with some definite budet guidlines and expectations. Most of these have also maintained a wide number of boats and had a lot of repair practice on a wide variety of wooden boat problem areas. They have seen a whole lot of things that most of the rest of us will never see. But they have taken care of the repairs and offer insights to us on what was appropriate and what was not.

There is a lot of knowledge represented across the particpants in this forum and the background covers a pretty wide area of experience and regional issues. That is what is making this forum worth participating in.

I've not seen any "dumb questions", only questions that maybe should have been asked earlier in the project. But I've not seen any of them not answered in a friendly and worthwile way for any new builder to use.

I think we are all very lucky that we have a dedicated Boataholic in our host and his dedication to making this a comfortable meeting place for these discussions to be conducted.

In any case, it is always the builders choice. No one is going to put anyone down for their decisions. We may not use this or that ourselves, but it doesn't mean you can't and have a successful project. Everyone's expectaions are different and it doesn't matter if it has a 40 ft. workboat finish on it or a "A" Yacht finish. I would just like to see them used and enjoyed.

[Howard]

Barry, if you are worried you have offended me....don't.

Tapping the knowledge and experience of this group is why I posted in the first place. There is a wide range of experience and dare I say ignorance on many topics. Ignorance here, being defined as nothing more than lack of knowledge. In relative terms, the experience level here might range from 2nd grade to PhD. A rather wide range for people to be associating with. And also, it has been my experience that in any group setting, there are no dumb questions. If one person asks it, 20 or more are thinking it but afraid to ask. In the real world, I sometimes mascarade as an educator. So I'll ask dumb questions even if I have to make them up. As long as comments are constructive, it works. Slapping someone down and calling them a dumba$$ doesn't, but that hasn't happened and I don't think it will.

Bob mentioned something that should be explored further, and that is relative cost of materials. If memory serves me correctly, a board foot is a NOMINAL not ACTUAL board that is 1 inch thick x 1 foot square. Nominal before dressing down to the actual size. So by this definition, my 10' long 2 x 12 has 20 board feet in it. If it cost $16 (it did), then I only paid 80 cents per board foot? If I am able to only use half of it, my cost goes up to $1.60 per board foot....still less than the $2 he mentions. If the math is wrong, set me straight. I think it helps to know what one is paying for in relative terms so you can make informed choices when shopping for materials.

Another topic... techniques to work around not having what you want. Laminating beams vs. being able to saw them out. Scarfing together pieces, vs. having one large clear piece. This is what I've resorted to.

Another topic is what woods work well for what. As I say, I don't have access to good clear doug fir (we have lots of sawmills and most of them buy native species and convert them into pallet lumber), but I do have access to white oak, walnut, ash and cherry. Normally thought of as trim woods, but can they also be structural?

Again, the reason I posted this to start with was to help guys find good materials to build long lasting boats. First, we define what "quality" is. IN this thread, we are talking lumber. This in the face of dwindling quality from an overtaxed resource. I know we would all like to use clear, vertical grain doug fir with tight ring count, quarter or rift sawn, but if you don't have access to a mill or boat lumber supply business, what do you do? How can you put together a decent boat that's going to last and be worthy of the labor you put into it. Cost being one piece of the puzzle. Absolute quality being another. There have been some good ideas, and I'm sure there will be more. Keep the comments coming!

[Howard]

For reference, I forgot to add the Glen-L link to wood suppliers:

http://www.glen-l.com/resources/lumber-suppliers.html

In my case, a potential resource is Schutte Lumber in KC. They are 120 miles away, but may have what I'm looking for. In the past, I have ordered a few sheets of Marine Fir ply from local yards and it always had to come in by truck from KC. Most likely Schutte, but I have not asked.

For those of you who know the suppliers in your areas, are these lists accurate? Are these places you would go to shop?

[Howard]

Bob: You mentioned pulling lumber from the mill, stacking, stickering, etc.

If you don't mind taking the time, can you describe that whole process and what it all means?

What do you see the advantages of air drying, vs. kiln drying? How long does it take before you can use it? As in what moisture levels do you start off with and what do you need to get to before the wood is stable enough to use? And what happens if it's used wet.

[BobSmalser]

Bob: You mentioned pulling lumber from the mill' date=' stacking, stickering, etc.

If you don't mind taking the time, can you describe that whole process and what it all means?

What do you see the advantages of air drying, vs. kiln drying? How long does it take before you can use it? As in what moisture levels do you start off with and what do you need to get to before the wood is stable enough to use? And what happens if it's used wet.[/quote']

Millling: Earl's Fir, Big Madrone

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl#smalser

Air Drying Stacks:

http://woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008298

Avoiding kilned lumber is best for any outdoors wood, especially boats. Airdried lumber bends better and lasts longer, as kilns usually overcook a percentage of the boards, damaging them.

Depending on where you live (humidity is the determinant), wood stabilizes at around 12-15% moisture content in your wet season and 6-9% in your dry season. That's the level you want to use it for boats, because that's what the boat wood is except for water completely submerged on all 4 sides, which can run 22% and higher...but in a trailer boat you don't have to worry about that. Lumberyard wood intended for furniture and kilned to 7% will swell if you build with it in your wet season.

Wood that has not yet stabilized can be used for some applications, but as its wetter on the inside than the outside, it can't be resawn without warping. It takes one drying season per inch of thickness to stabilize wood.

[Howard]

Under the category of "the rest of the story", or what a difference a day makes, I've attached a couple shots of what become of that warped board with pith wood shown on my first post.

I just hit the board a few passes with a skilsaw. Don't have a table saw where I live. The two pieces on the left are the pithwood and are total junk. They came out warped and with splits. The black spots are flys. No knots in these pieces.

The other three might have some use, unless they take off and warp on their own. Time will tell. The one on the right has a boom laid out on it and the layout eliminates all that pithwood The middle piece has no use planned, but it has some decent wood in it. Rings are a bit coarse on it and sapwood runs up the left edge. The skinny piece may get used for cleats, blocking or just test pieces. I do that sometimes. It is mostly clear with a few small knots. It was part of that pith wood piece. It may warp, but I hope to block it up into a bunch of smaller pieces before it does.

So yup....it started out ugly, but unless it continues to warp, it may turn out ok after all.

[BobSmalser]

You might read this post on green and pith wood:

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=013383

[Howard]

Bob:

That last post reminds me of some post and beam houses we are seeing built out of green oak. Trees are all second growth cuttings, so they are using a boxed heartwood to get the size they want. They dry in place and the splits and checks in those are huge.

As for boat lumber, following the good advice I've been getting, I've made a few phone calls. Schutte Lumber (found on the Glen L site) in KC stocks D Grade select, kiln dried, CVG Doug Fir, in up to 2 x 12 and lengths to 16 feet. The guy on the phone said it was intended for the furniture makers, and is nearly 100% clear.

A 2 x 12 is priced at $7.18 per linear foot (converts to $3.59 per board foot), or roughly 4.5 times what I paid for my junk boards. But with this, there would be no waste to speak of. I don't need 2 x 12, as clear 2 x 6 or 2 x 8 works just as well and is less expensive. I could probably talk to a local yard and have them bring it in on a truck with other orders, but if I go myself, I'll get to pick what I want. I would have about $100 in gas and a full day invested to get there, but that is part of the deal when you decide to build.

But all in all, a better solution if a guy is going to be building a boat that matters and wants it to last. Thanks to all that responded. I know I've learned something, and I hope others have as well.