Replica of "Spray" being built

[Greg Luckett]

That is a cool looking boat and the story is inspiring. Thanks for sharing it.

[Greg Luckett]

Hurrah for the Captain (and his long-suffering wife)! When he has some experience with her' date=' I would like to know if this boat can be made to duplicate the amazing trick of holding course for long periods without attention to the helm. I am fascinated by that capacity of Slocum's boat, and wish I knew what characteristics of the boat made it possible.[/quote']

A long reverse-curve keel with a symmetric hull is the trick. I cannot tell by the one pic if this is the case but suspect that it is. Spray was I think. Wine glass hulls with fin keels are unbalanced and probably will always have weather helm issues.

Check out this link: http://www.parsec-santa.com/sail/sprayphotos.html

[JeffM]

Reverse-curve keel? you mean sort of concave down? Whatever the keel looks like, there's got to be more to it -- some set of features in the rig that not only balance the helm but give it dynamic stability, so it always comes back on track after being knocked off course a bit by all the random effects constantly at work.

[Greg Luckett]

Refer to "Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding", by George Buehler, pp. 4 to 17. This is one reference; there are others....just the one I can recall now.

[PAR]

I recently pointed out to Barnacle Jim that the Spray (accurate lines are available) and Weekender/Vacationer have much in common.

I built a Spray replica many years ago, 41' x 14' x not enough draft. It, like any craft of it's displacement, is quite a project, mine taking 5 years to complete. The scope of a project, using the more typical types of construction, can be directly related to displacement, building by the pound or cubic foot being very realistic.

Bruce Roberts Spray designs have addressed some of the original form's short comings, like adding sufficient lateral area, cut back forefoot and weight distribution. The Spray isn't self righting, but can be handled at sea, with a knowledgeable crew and skipper. Culler's design attacked the same issues.

Reverse curves are generally referring to the sectional shapes in the hull, wine glass being one that has those curves. These shapes can have been brought down into the deadwood areas of a hull and Spray was no exception, being typical of her era. A lot of her lateral plane is developed in these reverse curve areas, resulting in dramatic dead rise in this style of hull. They needed to carry considerable load as working craft and the "built down" bilge served well in this regard. Wine glass hulls with fin keels don't have to be unbalanced. Most of the unbalanced shapes are a result of providing "bearing" aft to support large downwind sails to over come the short fall of a Bermudian rig and to support the boat in plane mode. The product of these shape evolutions are 40' yachts that can sail faster then wind strength in some cases. A broad reach with an asymmetric set, pushing you over 20 knots is exciting stuff, but like all choices in yacht design, comes with the usual trade off's and compromises.

Indeed, Spray had balanced ends, which is what I think Greg is referring to. Meaning the underwater plan shapes were pointy on both ends, with an eye to parting and returning the water flowing around the hull as gently as possible. This is much different then the triangular shapes seen on modern sailboats. Boats with balanced ends are much more comfortable (given a reasonable D/L) in a confused sea then the wide sterned yachts of today. On the other hand, the Spray would have been hard pressed to better a 1.3 speed length ratio, which wouldn't quite be hull speed using today's standards, whereas the triangular shapes used in modern craft will do better then this, some by a very large margin. Personally, I agree with a lot of George Buehler's ideas, but I've never seen any of his sail designs that were capable of keeping pace with a similarly sized craft of modern configuration. I suspect his 50' Dragonfly design could do well, but it's rig is undersized as drawn and surly couldn't plane off with her steep run. I wonder if he finished her, she's the prettiest of his sail designs (my opinion) and a comfortable shape to be at sea in. I would expect she could turn some good passage times in, if sailed by someone a little more aggressive then George.

[Greg Luckett]

Par,

I am treading gently here because I am still a student of marine design and may (probably) will not communicate the concepts well. As I understand Buehler's designs, they were made for comfortable cruising, not speed. It seems that most boat designs being factory built are for looks and speed, not necessarily sea worthiness. I haunt the marinas and boat yards here and wherever I happen to be traveling. Most of the sailing boats are not anything I would take off shore. To race in the Mac race here on Lake Michigan, my friends had to make extensive modifications to their boats to meet minimum safety requirements. The Mac can be a grueling and very dangerous race.

I think you are right about the Stevenson designs being more balanced, but the flat bottoms cause other mitigating problems with balance. Still, I like the way Stevenson's boats look. I am just too old and fat to enjoy crawling around in one for very long.

Did the Spray have a wine glass hull? I was looking at shapes in "Understanding Boat Design", 4th edtion, by Ted Brewer on page 16. I was thinking it had a hard chine but now that I have looked again, it is wine glass or Y section.

Greg.

[PAR]

I wouldn't call Spray a "wine glass" hull form, though is has reverse curves at the garboard, which are typical of wine glass hulls, maybe she's a brandy sniffer. Spray was a round bilge carvel planked, fishing boat for most of the 1800's, when she was placed in a field to live out her remaining days, going back to mother earth, literally. The good captain was given the old sloop (some think she was an oyster dredger, but it's debatable) after a long career at sea. He was known as a fine skipper and excellent navigator, but little is known about his building skills, which he clearly had.

He rebuilt her "stick by stick", making several modifications to the old girl, one gave her the distinctive barn door like transom. He built her to work and intended to just find employment up and down the coast, which he did for a while after re-splashing.

As a sea going vessel she's a kind beast in a good slosh, but her displacement and hull shape brought her through. Being a non-self righting craft, she needed to be sailed with good hands in nasty conditions, as any boat like this should be. Some will have you think only ballasted, self righting boats belong offshore, but a well handled shoal craft can do fine in big seas.

Limits in material and technique, plus the mind set of most designers of her era contributed to her hull shape. She had balanced ends and was a wholesome and well burdened craft, designed to carry considerable load in most weather. This caused her to have some good features and also some bad, but this is true of any yacht. She was shaped quite differently then current requirements in sailing yachts. Her design was to carry tons of sea food and bring it back to port in the nastiest of large bay or near shore weather. She had lots of interior volume, which cost her in speed from wave making resistance. This was partly made up with a huge sail plan (original) but lightly loaded she may have been quirky, possibly the reason the good captain cut down her rig.

Sailboats are just like race cars. The faster you want to go, the more unstable then machine becomes. To win races in a sailboat today, you have to be able to claw high into the wind (high aspect Bermudian rig and fin) plus the ability to plane off. This is why modern sailboats (for the most part) have wide sterns and triangular waterlines. They need the bearing area aft to hold up against the huge press of sail down wind. These same boats are also light. Light weight means it gets slapped around by big seas, which is very uncomfortable.

If you increase the comfort level, you lose some of the go fast potential. Most sailors don't travel very far from their mooring or berth. The vast majority of craft available reflect this trait, being built for the tasks asked by their owners. This keeps the cost down and sales up. A well founded ocean going vessel will cost several times a harbor queen, because you're getting a passage making yacht, not a putter to the yacht club and back, wet tee shirt contest winner. We all like the wet tee shirt contest winner, but wouldn't want to be married to one in a good storm.

[Greg Luckett]

Par,

8) I was with you right up to the last sentence or two. Now I am wondering if I can talk my lady into getting wet. :wink: Supposed to be in the mid 80s here...a record for us I think. A few days ago it was into the 30s. If I can still type later I will let you know how it went.

Thanks for your very informative responses. This is a good learning discussion for me. I wonder if the instability and non-self righting is why the Spray and her crew disappeared at sea? Since this replica has now splashed I would also like to know how she behaves in the water.

Greg.

[PAR]

The Spray is probably the most built replica/reproduction/modification/in the theme of boat around. Thousands of them have been built, all over the world for over a century and most sail as you'd expect for a heavy, fat and shallow draft gaffer. By current standards she's a tub, but Spray is also a lot of boat for live aboard and cruising. I've seen them in radius chine steel, multi chine steel, round bilge wood, 'glass and one in ferro cement. They've been scaled down to as little as 25' and up to 65'. It's something about the charm of the first 'rounding vessel that draws folks to it, but it's not well suited for extended open water use, unless the crew is skilled.

The Spray hull form and rig are less then inspiring performance wise. I was easily beaten by a Tahiti ketch on a day's run in light winds. Getting stomped by a Collin Archer type, under canvassed ketch is embarrassing, especially since they suck in light air.

It is a splendid platform for live aboard and coastal cruising. It has loads of room. It's tough enough to take the abuses of near shore work and the inabilities of an inattentive crew. It has all the hull knockers at your flanks in port and generally draws fine reviews form the "don't have a clue, but it looks cool" crowds that seem to flock to the coasts in nice weather. Just don't expect to get anywhere faster then the 7 knots it can muster on a good day.

I lost mine in a fire and wouldn't have selected her as a build for myself, but it was a started project, that had run out of steam ("it's me or the boat . . .") I picked it up, after the frames were erected on the backbone and most of the stringers hung. I trucked her down from up state NY and finished off what was a good quality beginning, in hopes she would sell reasonably quickly. The owner sold her for much less then the material costs (the things we do for love, or in his case, keeping love) and cried when I hauled it away. I sent him pictures from time to time, but we lost touch after a few years (I think he shot her and bought another boat)

I've seen Sprays with schooner, ketch and yawl rigs. They look goofy with a Bermudian rig, but I've seen those too.

If I was thinking about a boat in this size range, I'd build a longer, lighter boat with the same displacement. I have the same amount of room, better length to beam ratio, longer waterline and lower displacement/length ratio. It would cost about the same and build about the same, but you'd have a faster, easier handling craft. See, I do think a lot like Mr. Buehler.

[JeffM]

Lots of good info here! Thanks! So you built and sailed a "Spray" PAR? Very cool!!! (no matter what you say about how slow she was). Were you able to leave the helm for long periods? I am impressed that Slocum's boat maintained that ability even after he modified his rig several times.

[PAR]

Hi Jeff, most boats that have reasonably balanced underwater shapes can be made to self steer, pretty easily. Modern hull shapes and planning craft can self steer also, but tend to be cranky. By that I mean they self steer okay, but the course is typically a series of shallow scallops as the boat rounds and falls off, repeatedly with each shift. Long keels help dampen this trait and are kinder to the helmsman, they carry on in spite of slight shifts. Having a high D/L ratio also helps in this regard, the momentum made, pushes you through shifts and lulls, so the ride is easier and the boat less likely to react to small shifts.

Spray's self steering qualities were no more then the hallmark of it's underwater shapes. A divided rig (multiple masts) can help this issue quite a bit, providing more hoist options to balance the helm.

There are several ways to rig a boat to self steer. Spray's way was to lash the helm and set a combination of sails, that worked for the conditions, which is fine in trade wind work, but not good enough in near shore efforts. The way I do it is with a bungee cord on the helm and the jib sheet crossed over and tied to the other side of the helm. There are many other methods, most requiring more complication, I tend toward simple things.

[Greg Luckett]

Par,

Do you have any light (opinions welcome) to shed on the Princess Sharpie's as regards weather helm and handling issues in general? I am looking over the P26 plan set now and seriously considering building this one.

Thanks,

Greg.

[JeffM]

Thanks, PAR. I was guessing the steadiness of offshore trades was one key to Slocum's success. I don't think he was luffing much, though, since he could average 6kt for days on end. In the back of my mind is getting my own cs20 to do a little modest self-steering-- say, a few minutes at least. It is a very light-weight hull with centerboard, but it does have a divided rig. The scalloping course is okay with me. I will keep messing with bungees of different tension, and different sail trim and cb position.

[PAR]

Greg, I couldn't answer the weather helm issues with the Princess Sharpie 26, but the sail plan looks well placed. Weather helm is usually an easy problem to fix, if a boat is built to the plans. It's when changes to the rig, underwater profile or areas, or other deviations from the plans, are made, that balance issues (weather helm is one) come to haunt an owner/builder. Dialing in the rig during your first few sails (sea trials) will take care of weather helm.

The sailing qualities of the cat ketch are well established. I'm fond of the rig, because I grew up on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake Bay and the rig was everywhere as a kid. They're surprisingly close winded for a divided rig, mostly, I expect because of the tradition of placing the mizzen well aft, instead of the usual practice of tucked up just aft of the main boom, typical of the traditional ketch (one with headsails) This gap serves to permit the boat to sail higher into the wind, before the backwind off the main kills the drive to the mizzen. They'll kick a gaff sloops butt going to wind, partly because of the taller luff on the main and better windward shape in the Bermudian rig. Off wind the gaff sloop will crush the Bermudian cat ketch, but then the mizzen staysail can be hoisted and it's bye, bye sloop.

Because of the freestanding sticks, the boat is a snap to setup and put away. The sprit booms are my first choice in small craft, for the vanging properties and decreased sheeting tackle required. The rig will take care of itself and the sailor can relax and enjoy the ride without gloves.

They have their draw backs too, like anything, there's bound to be trade offs, but in small craft interested in just a good time on a Saturday afternoon, hard to beat.

The hull form has fine qualities, the chine has a good entrance and just immersed at rest. The aft sections have good power, so I'd suspect the boat will handle most of what folks would dare venture into. Her stability curve is impressive and loaded, up she should shoulder through with the best, certainly as well as any production boat in her class.

Her long, very shoal keel will help her track well and the off center board will greatly contribute to her windward abilities, plus maneuvering qualities.

She's not a small boat and will consume a good deal of time and materials to construct. Since she's a stitch and goo boat, plus having the free standing rig, there's quite a bit of savings over more traditional construction and rig types.

I say go for it . . .

Ray, as usual, is right. Most cruisers desire a long keel for passagemaking and the bar hoppers or weekend racer/cruiser folks want to spin the boat on a dime at the windward mark or in crowded anchorages. You can split the difference with what use to be called a 3/4 keel. A shorter longer fin with rudder or skeg/rudder combo. This increases your maneuverability a good bit, while still providing good tracking. You see this arrangement much more on blue water vessels now, then the traditional full length keel.