lapper

[Jan Williamson]

New thread! Does anyone have a picture of their lapper/jib. Barry kindly gave me some block placements for this sail, but my books don't seem to show how the sail works. I purchased the Sailmakers Apprentice and the Rigger's Apprentice. A month ago or so. They are both great books. Any info would be greatl;y appreciated.

[Greg Luckett]

Have you looked in the Gallery yet? Lots of great pictures there.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Well, when you are pointed towards the wind (sort of) the sail fills and the leech is overlapping the luff of the main sail. This creates a venturi effect or an area that has an increased rate of flow generated. The increase in the rate of flow over the outside of the mainsail combined with the increased velocity over the longer length of the lapper creates a low pressure area on the outside surfaces of the lapper as well as the main.

End result, lift is created and it helps to pull you along rather than just

push you along.

Then when you tack, you release the jib sheet on that side and tack, the change in air pressure and direction will reverse the jib as well as the main and you take up the other jib sheet to balance it on the new tack.

The overlap (hence the name Lapper) of the jib over the luff of the main is a powerful tool to drive the boat. Far greater than the jib/main sail alone. It obviously can't be self tending as a clubfoot can't extend back any further than the base of the mast and the clew of the Lapper is quite a bit further back than the mast. The resulting "Venturi" created when going upwind is something to behold. You can feel the boat leap forward when it fills. When going on a reach the same effect is available and can really make a difference in the power of the combination. It is good in very light/lighter/moderate winds. Once they start to get pretty heavy, (tops starting to blow off the waves), it is time to douse it and put up a smaller sail. Such as the standard jib.

When going downwind, it captures a lot more air than the standard jib and helps with downwind performance. In extremely light air, you can add a whisker pole to set the clew outboard and rig the sheet to the back of the boom in one configuration that will grab as much air as is available and get you moving when all others are standing still or barely making headway.

Next step up from the Lapper would be a Genoa which would overlap the stays. On a Weekender with the stays set to the rail, it is a bit awkward to rig and manage as the Genoas really work better on boats with stays inboard from the rails. Potential for quite a bit of chaffing on the sails on our types of boats.

The Lapper can be the same weight as the other sails as far as material is concerned. And used in most all the same conditions as the standard Jib, but when it starts to blow a lot harder it is time to bring it down and go to something smaller.

In making one, it helps to put a little 'belly" into them so that they can grab a little more air. But when not too much because you want to really be able to tune it in (tighten up on the sheet to flatten the sail), when you are moving upwind and tacking or reaching in moderate winds.

Since it is a larger sail, it can be a handful to manage when it gets a little breezy and you need to bring it down. That is when a roller furler makes a huge difference. Otherwise the roller furling is a really nice convenience to handle the foresail without the need to go to the foredeck. You may still need to got there to raise either the standard jib or a storm sail however. But at least you wouldn't have to rassle the Lapper and try to bring it down and stow it when it gets a little rough.

[Bill]

Found a little more on the Whisker Pole here...Barry explained it all very well though..just some extra notes if you want.

http://www.forespar.com/catalog/whiskerpoles/about.htm#What%20is%20a%20Whisker%20Pole

Bill

[Mike Pennington]

Okay so this was overkill but it did work, however I couldn't get it to spool tight enough on the furler.

Here is a sail comparison of the sails I have tried.

The middle sail has proved to be most practical on a light wind day. I have used it with or without the stock jib at the same time.

The larger one is now in the process of becoming a genoa with down haul rigging. I'll give it a try, otherwise to much sail for so little of a boat :roll:

Like Craig says getting the right shape is optimal, my friend Lars Opland, helmsman on the Eagle is helping me to find the right spots to install an attachment point for my sheat lines. Now all I have to do is do it.

I like having a secret weapon on board, in case that dang giant hobbi-cat blows by again. Grrr! I still wouldn't have come close, but it would have taken him at least another second. :wink:

[Barry Pyeatt]

OH MY GOD MIKE! :shock: We don't want to scare the poor lady off before she even gets her new bowsprit cut. :wink:

Although I'm certain that she realizes that you have a Vacationer and she hs just a little bitty Weekender. we need to be careful about comparrisons of size.

Jan,

If you are interested in making your own, the Polysail website http://members.aol.com/polysail/HTML/index.htm

has some good instructions on making up a polysail set for the Weekender as well as a generic Genoa type jib that would work well for the Lapper. It shows you how to put darts in the fabric and set the edges to add shape to the sail. Of course you can order a kit from them and get everything you need. Or if you just want white poly tarps, I can give you a couple sources along with sources for colored Duct tapes (or white duct tape).

Working with poly tarps will allow you to do a lot of things witout putting a lot of money or effort into trying different concepts. I would recommend that you make the stock setup first and get used to how it sails with it. Then add the lapper if you choose. You will begin to get some experience with both and find when the lapper works well and when the standard jib works well. Also how to handle the standard jib on a clubfoot and then change over to two sheets and learn to handle it and tune it for varying conditions. Then you have a valid comparrison.

Another source ,if you wish to sew your own sails, is Sailrite. Frank has a link in the alternate materials portion of the site. I know a number of people that have used their kits and they end up with a very nice set of sails to their specifications.

[Mike Pennington]

:oops:

I got carried away. And I should say I use my stock sails more than any other. To be honest, there arn't that many days I can use a bigger sail. There has to be enough wind to fill them on a light air day. When the wind is rippling the water, thats a good time. Much more than that where there are waves, I am more likely to be reefing down :roll:

But there are days that I like to scare the holy crapolla out of myself. :wink:

[Craig]

Mike that tarp may be too heavy for light air. I have been told that 4oz per yard is about the limit for those big headsails. Try making a Yankee for the moderate wind days. Make it the same size as your working jib and fly it high on the stay. I remember reading some where that Peter Stevenson purposely under canvassed these boats for safety reasons.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Yes, the lighter fabric is more appropriate for the larger Genoas and other light air sails. Most poly tarp material is 6oz. or heavier. But there are lighter poly tarps out there that are UV protected and would work fine on a battleship such as Mike's.

I've only had Weekender experience with the Lapper on Capt. Jake's Fire Escape. And that was with little or no appreciable wind movement on one outing and light on the other. There were times when neither the Lapper nor the main would fill and yet we were making headway. Others were just sitting. A couple times I used the paddle as a whisker pole to hold the clew of the sail out to the opposite side from the main and it was immediately apparent that it was helping.

We did have some stronger winds that allowed us to get nice shape to both sails and play with shape and tuning of the Lapper to get going quite well. Enough to know that it is a good combination.

I had the opportunity to sail in the Carib. recently with a little larger gaffer with a lapper and heavier winds. It was a blast. WE had froth blowing off the tops of the waves and we were never in a situation that was uncomfortable with it. This boat was about 27' and the Lapper would be larger than on Mike's boat. It was heavier Dacron than I would have thought appropriate, but he uses the Lapper for all but the heaviest conditions and has good light air performance. The cut of the sail makes a huge difference in light air, more so than when the wind is moderate. I would want the Leech lines on the lighter sails for our use. The allow you to add some fullness to catch more air.

Most of the larger headsails that I've used are of a little lighter material though unless they are everyday crusing sails. The genoa on our 41' ketch was the same weight as the main, but we had terrible light air performance just because the boat was so heavy.

[Jan Williamson]

Yes, that was a pretty big sail, but how will you know unless you try.

Barry, you better be saving these these great tutorials, so when you compile you book you won't have to type it out again Thank you!!!

So do you carry the club foot for the standard jib onboard, to hook up when you want to change. Does the lapper roll up and stay in place when you hook up the standard jib (on the forestay?) or do you take it down. (see, I am really green.) But I was not lost with your tutorial. I have read enough in the sailmakers apprentice to get alot of the terminology.

The polysail is attractive in it's (get you on the water quick) idea. And it would be a good idea for an extra set. I do have all winter to rig the boat though, a three step zig-zag machine, and an industrial straight stitch for the leather corner re-inforcments, not counting a few decades of sewing experience. I found a source for 30 inch dacron for $7.00/yd. The standard set of sails takes about 20 yds. I haven't measured the lapper yet. I would be interested in comparing the performance of the polysail to the dacron. But I would need some sailing experience to be able to tell the difference

[Barry Pyeatt]

If you send me your address, I'll send you the fabric to make up mine too. Of course I'll let you practice on yours first to get it right! :wink: I'm in no particular hurry, after all you'll have all winter to do it.

You would carry the clubfoot with you incase you needed it. And if you set up a roller such as Capt. Jake and I are working with, you can just drop it and coil up the Lapper and put it in the cabin. Then attach the standard jib and away you go.

I plan on utilizing my boom as a carry-all of sorts. My oars will be carried on the boom as will my whisker pole/boat hook. The extra weight won't hurt when the wind is up and if I need to lighten it, I can always stow them in the cabin.

I'm so far behind in my writing at this point that I don't have time to think about the book right now. Several deadlines are on my horizon for articles that I have to get done. The hurrier I go, the behinder I get! :?

____________________________

I may not be good, but I'm slow!

[Phil Gowans]

Here are some lapper pictures.

I was one of the lucky ones. I got a set of 3 sails from Ulta Sail, a loose footed Main, a regular Jib and a Lapper (as designed by Paul J.) This first picture is the one he put on his home page (that no longer seems to be up). You can see how much further back the Lapper comes, but it is still inside the shrouds.

It is quite a bit bigger than the regular jib. I store both in bags in the cabin. The club foot comes off when I use the Lapper. I like Barry's idea of using a whisker pole. When running wing and wing it would be nice to have. However, I think it might be a bit of a bother singlehanded. I think the club foot is about the right length and already has a clip for the clue. I just need to find a way to attach it to the mast. Humm...

I like sailing with the Lapper. It gives great performance when the wind is light. I even use it when with fairly high wind conditions and Aloha likes to move along with it. It requires a lot more fiddling around, especially with my jam cleats. It's always the leeward side that I have to be dealing with (the furthest away). This and trying to hold the wheel and the main sheet means that I need 3 hands when I have no crew. Even the loose sheet (upwind) must be tied off or I have to go hunting it down while tacking (thank goodness for figure eight knots on the bitter end - that way it at least stops at my fairleed). Sometimes with a crew I don't use the Lapper either. If my crew is inexperienced (grand children), doesn't want to be bothered (my wife is out for a suntan) or the cockpit crowded, I opt for the simplicity of the self tending jib. Even singlehanded I often select the smaller jib to make it easier on my self, but I do have fun when I use the Lapper. I try to select the correct jib for the day when I start. I never want to switch in the middle of sailing, but conditions change.

Here you can see a good heal. The lapper makes this more "fun".

I set up some fairleeds to run my sheets through. These were paced where the sail seemed to fill right. I wanted something fairly simple and this fit the bill. I cleat off to my jam cleats on each side of the cockpit. When I use the regular jib, I use the port one for my jib sheet and the starboard for my peek halyard. Cam cleats would be prefered for the Lapper, but I am trying to avoid anything I didn't make.

[Jan Williamson]

Barry, I'd rather practice on yours first. You don't mind a patch here and bunched up fabric there, do ya?

Thanks for the info

Great pictures Phil. Thanks. I like the idea of making everything too. I wouldn't mind buying the sails except I don't want to spend that much. I still don't have a trailer yet. I am still contemplating pre-made, or home made

The lakes I will be sailing on tend to have a lot of light wind days. So I think having the option of both sails to choose from will be a good idea. I will enjoy the practice using the two.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Great photos Phil. Helps to explain the use better than just plain words. Geez....suppose that is where that saying came from? A picture is worth.....posting to help explain.

Love the fairleads. Did you mount one to the rail on either side?

You could use jam cleats and make them yourself. I've got a link to a "How to" somewhere here from "The Cheap Pages" if you want it.

[Mike Pennington]

Beautiful boat Phil 8)

[Phil Gowans]

Barry, there are fairleeds on both sides of the cabin.

As you can see below, I made my own jam cleats. I rather like them. They look really nice and hold line very well. They cleat and uncleat fast. The problem I have with them for sheets is there ought to be some sort of fairleed close to them (mabey that's what I really ought do). On a tack when loosening the tight line I have to give about 2-3 feet of slack and re-cleat there or the line will often slip all the way to the fore fairleed. This procedure takes a bit time and it's when I'm trying to manuever the wheel and main sheet to say nothing about keeping my ballast on the windward side. This and getting the other jib cleat adjusted. This is only a problem when the wind is really cranking and I'm single handing. That's when I didn't get the windward cleat tied off and the have to go searching for it. Sometimes I really appreciate making a tack with the club foot: turn the wheel, duck, sit on the other seat and you're done. You switch hands but you don't have to let go of something and go wandering around setting up the jib.

Humm... putting in closer fairleeds would kind of solve two problems. I wouldn't have to take time to tie off the end of the line and I wouldn't have to go getting it out of the forward fairleed. I'll have to think about that.

[Craig]

Nce photos Phil. Did you ever get my private message? I love the "white water over the rail" photo.

[Johannah]

Jan, you did a good job getting the "Now-and-then Sailing Seminar" up and running for its latest meeting! 8) When the crew is warmed up and on a roll of good discussion with illustrations, I get moments of lucidity when all seems clear and comprehensible. They are most enjoyable but it's OK, they pass quickly enough.

[Phil Gowans]

Nce photos Phil. Did you ever get my private message? I love the "white water over the rail" photo.

Craig, No private message. I'm not used to looking for them - I've only had a couple. Perhaps I missed it, but I suspect it never came.

[Jan Williamson]

That's what I like about this group of people. Folks are kind enough to share the "really good stuff" with someone like me, some new but extremely passionate wana-be-sailor.

Phil, I love the outloud brainstorm. I have a feeling most fun part is yet to come. Solving one issue at a time. I love your pictures. You look like your having a blast!! I too have been "stocking your sites" as Adla would say .

Barry, one of the sailmaker's apprentice's mention of the roller furling being rigged as the forestay as not a great set-up. I like your mention of the forestay being a couple inches forward of the roller furler set-up. Now I have yet another project to look forward to.

Here my boat on it's new dolly. I don't have a trailer yet, and I really needed to move this baby around.