Joe Nelson CS#35 Posted October 25, 2003 Posted October 25, 2003 Just wondering what the reasoning behind enlarging the sail plan on your CS20 was? Why you ordered the oversized sails initially without trying the sail plan as designed. Is your area known for low wind? I was curious about your assessment thus far. Since the boat should attain faster speeds when only slightly heeled, is the larger sailplan counter-productive or does it pick up speed with the "winches in the water"? Any thoughts about getting a portsmouth rating? Single handing should be easy and with one person on board she should really scoot!! Quote
Designer Posted October 25, 2003 Posted October 25, 2003 Joe, I too am curious as to how she performs with the oversized rig. I can see by Brent's photos that he will be overpowered quickly. While sailing "Ketchup" in the last "Great Race" with 3 people on the rail in 20 knots and gusting I still had to feather into the wind often. The lake where he sails is renowned for light air and Brent is an experienced Highlander sailor, a class known for it's huge sail plan. You will see that he has a set of reef points on each sail and I expect he will use them often. With the standard rig she has plenty of power and unless an owner is a highly experienced sailor and is willing to work hard a lot of the time I would strongly recommend the standard sail plan. Maybe Robb will chime in as he just completed a cruise in his CS20 with a standard rig. Quote
Brent Posted October 27, 2003 Posted October 27, 2003 I am very happy with the somewhat aggressive sail plan on my CS20. Light winds abound here, with the average afternoon wind of probably 5-10 mph. Graham mentions 20 knots; the rare days that happens around here that would be accompanied with much rain or snow or flying cats, making for "not nice to go sailing" days. I am somewhat of a performance minded sailer; I like to go fast and I don't mind working a bit to get that. By comparing sail area/weight/length ratios I arrived at the notion that a bit more sail area would be good. Graham and I knocked this around a bit, and the end result was the top full batten design. Graham did a superb job of this sail design, which meets all my expectations. I sail solo frequently, and I find I can manage the rig just fine. Incidently, the cat ketch concept is great! These powerful sails have a center of effort much closer to the deck than my high aspect ratio racing Highlander rig. The result is less heeling and a lot of go. I find the CS20 hull heels easily the first few degress, but then seems to resists further heeling with increasing tenacity. The hull is fastest with a slight heel, not with the rail in the water. It is easy to get up on plane. So I ended up with a rig customized to my wishes. I would not recommend this for everyone, and for sure this boat would be overpowered at most coastal locations. The rig on my boat is powerful, but also more complicated. It is hard to beat the convenience of the rig in the plan that furls around the masts and has no halyards. Quote
Joe Nelson CS#35 Posted October 27, 2003 Author Posted October 27, 2003 Thanks for the explanation and sailing comments! Sounds like you have a great setup for your area! Do you have some pictures of your sail track setup on the multi piece spars? We discussed this once but picture sometimes give me a better understanding. Thanks, Joe PS. for my status, look at the post titled "Changes". I cant wait to have mine in the water!!! Maybe this coming Spring. I am building a shop that will get me out from under a carport. Much better working conditions!! Quote
Rob Blackburn Posted October 28, 2003 Posted October 28, 2003 Well this is one that interests me as I pondered the sails a lot initially and was concerned up to launch day that they weren't big enough. Also one of the sheets in the plan pack gives a smaller total sail area than the sail plan sheet itself so was a bit confused. We made to the plan with no battens and roller reefing around the mast. I could not be happier I reckon. We tried it from 5knots to 25 gusting and felt secure and under control at all times. I would not personally add any more... period. We can leave the beach at 10am in 5 knots and by 3pm the sea "breeze" from the north east is gusting 20knots. The weight of all our camping gear and beer etc made no big difference either to the boat. We trully had no need for a bigger rig. I do reckon you need the 5hp outboard though. People suggested 2hp etc but my experience when we had 10nm to go into wind and chop with all the gear, 5hp at 70% power gave us about 5.5knots on the gps comfortably. The extra 8kg on the transom only equates to about 6 bottles of red wine or rum in the boat so why worry ???? Rob Quote
mustangermatt Posted October 30, 2003 Posted October 30, 2003 Being an old Sailor I did stability calculations on the CS 17 along with a few others before choosing plans. What I came up with is the CS hulls righting moment continues to increase dramatically up to about 13 - 14 degrees of heel, then drops off equally dramatically at around 17 - 20 degrees. This depends alot on the weight in the boat of course, and does not take into account "dynamic ballast" (people;-). As for sail area, I will be using the standard sails for convenience on hull #97. But I am also adding extra halyard blocks for a staysail or fisherman to handle the frequent "light and variable" here in Puget Sound and San Juan islands. We have very strong tidal currents, and winds that amount to no more than a puff from time to time in the summer. (But 25 knts is also common, hence the standard rig :-) And also no outboard. I guess I would rather have the wine ;-) But seriously with four kids weight is a concern on a camping trip. And the whole idea of the boat is for them to learn about the marine environment and how to coexist with it and its peculiar schedule. An engine won't help there. But after read a few posts from you guys I think I will reinforce the transom just in case I change my mind on that one... Quote
Brent Posted October 30, 2003 Posted October 30, 2003 quote]But after read a few posts from you guys I think I will reinforce the transom just in case I change my mind on that one... I have been mentally dabbling with this concept also. Presently my CS is without motor. I like the quiet, and I like the notion of getting home by sailing prowess, even in "light and variable". But, there are those times... I have been experimenting with a crude yuloh - which seems to work fine on flat water with no current. During trials, the yuloh had trouble keeping up with the Ohio River current. Oars might be slightly better for these types of conditions. I have been considering mounting a trolling motor. Plusses are the quiet and no odorous gas. There seem to be a bunch of not expensive trollers out on Ebay that might be fun to experiement with. Quote
Guest Don Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 I'm in my late 50's and way out of shape. I use 11 ft narrow blade oars of doug fir. I can make 2.4kt all day long or 3kt for about one hour or around 3.8 kt for a short distance. Even in the low wind area of southern Puget Sound I can get there and it does no harm to this old beer belly. My complaint is the need to move the mizzen each time the wind dies or comes back. If one were to install a set of sockets about 16" aft of the normal position an temporary seat using the aft bulkhead as stretcher one could put ones back into the oars without too much interferance from the mizzen mast (I think). But the stern would be down and I've never set up oars this far aft. Any experience, thoughts out there? I carefully fit a socket for sculling next to the gallows as I've enjoyed this option even on large boats. Couldn't get over a knot perhaps due this narrow oar shape but only tried for a minute. I'm going to try a flat cut nylon forsail with articulated spreader (I heard someone call it a twixtle years ago). Quote
Brent Posted November 7, 2003 Posted November 7, 2003 Don, I am thinking the same thing...put those oarlocks well aft of the mizzen. I want to transition easily from row to sailing without moving the mizzen mast. If the bow rides a bit high that is ok, primary mode of propulsion is sail not row, so compromise is ok in this matter. I will probably even row standing facing forward..until I plant my face once to often into the mizzen. Quote
Brent Posted November 21, 2003 Posted November 21, 2003 Joe, this is in reply to your inquiry: Do you have some pictures of your sail track setup on the multi piece spars? Here is a picture of the mast transition sections with sail track. I used SS washers for spacers and 3/16" ss rivets to attach the sail track. [attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin] Quote
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