Ambler

Can't believe it's so long since I posted at the start of building, - 2004! - when I had so much grief with plywood breakage: http://www.messing-about.com/forums/index.php?topic=2041.msg16456#msg16456 Meantime after a bit of surgery and a lot of lethargy, some progress has been made so I thought I should report (see photo which I hope to attach.) I'm seriously butchering Graham's design; sacrilege I know but I'm not so much interested in final performance as just having fun. I did away with the curved "fillets" on the seating and rearranged the plywood layout to get the boat out of 5 sheets instead of 7 (budget is a major issue.) Then I decided to try using a pivoting bilge board instead of the dagger, to have more room in the boat. Also cut hatches in the seat tops to get access for storage, and I'm making what I hope will be watertight covers for them. I'll be using an existing sail from a long-deceased dinghy. It's about the right size but has a bolt-rope, not a sleeve. I'm not so keen on the idea of the sleeve anyway; I want to be able to reef and I don't know how you could, with a sleeve? I'm thinking of using mast hoops or lacing. Then I'd like to do away with the vang; wondering if I could use a sprit to take the place of both boom & vang. My desire to do away with the vang arises from experience with my previous dinghy, which had a shroud-supported mast. If I had to leave the sail untended for some reason, in any sort of a breeze, the boat would fall off the wind until the boom fetched up on the shroud, then suddenly we'd be sailing again out of control, heading up with a sickening swoop until the sail would luff head-to-wind; whereupon the cycle would be repeated for as many times as it took me to get back in command of the situation. Not the kind of experience I enjoy, by myself in a small boat. I imagine the vang would create the same kind of incident when it fetches up on the forward bulkhead. I have sailing experience only with the conventional cat rig - boom but no vang - on that old (non-preformance) dinghy. Don't know beans about using other rigs, except what I've read here & there. Others' experience would be welcomed. Before starting I helped my son build a Catspaw dinghy, as tender for his power boat, and that worked out very well, but he hasn't yet rigged it for sailing. He challenged me to a 2-boat sailing regatta for the summer solstice 2008 but neither of us was ready so the new date is solstice 2009. OK here goes to see if I can successfully attach my photo.

Hi, Bruce. Glad to hear you're in Nanaimo. That's the "Big Smoke" (Costco, Home Depot, Wow!) for us. If you tell me how to get in touch I'll give you a call next time I'm over and maybe we can meet. It may be a while though - I just hatched a case of shingles over the weekend. Have to stay home till the contagious stage is past; however long that turns out to be. If you can get the photos up it would be interesting to see your stack of scarves. Here's some chatter about my boat: The fact I started painting is no indication of imminent launch! I was a bit premature but wanted the fun of seeing some finish on the hull. I've sanded several "definitely-the-last" coats back down trying to get a surface I like. I lack a good area to paint in. The shop (my garage) has grit'n grime and poor lighting. I guess if I got right down to it there's not that much to do - at least to get it in the water; but without sailing rig. I've done a number of things that aren't as designed - the aforementioned bilge board plus "cargo" hatches in the tops of the long seats. Didn't want to spend the money for those screw-in closures but I'm still inventing home-made covers that will be reasonably watertight. Then I'll be using the sail off an older dinghy - the rest of it disintegrated a while back. Having sullied the design this far I may as well go whole hog and I want to come up with a different sail-to-mast attachment system: Hoops? Sprit? Partly this is because I want a sail that can a) be reefed and fly all the way forward when let go. Using a vang would prevent the latter. I'm a very amateur sailor, usually solo and I got pretty scared in my previous cat-rigged boat if I had reason to let the sail look after itself for a moment or two in a good wind. With the sheet let go, the boat would fall off the wind until the boom fetched up against the mast stays. Then we'd suddenly be sailing again in a sickening uncontrolled swoop back into the wind before another stall and fall-off. Never found a satisfactory way to avoid this. Comments on any aspect of this are welcome. As I said before, I'm obviously not concerned with max performance - for me it's more a matter of having fun while not terrifying myself too badly. Comfort (haha) matters too which is why I decided to do away with the space-hogging daggerboard. I was also concerned with the possibility for hull damage if running aground fast with the board down. Prefer the idea of something that swings up when it hits resistance. Graham (probably rightly) thinks I worry too much. Apologies to Graham and all others whose sensibilities may be offended by my butchery of his design. I'm sure to folks like your group, interested in competing, I sound like a real Phillistine. It all stems (pun?) from my search for a home-build hull design that would work with my old sail. As you can guess I'm financially constrained (the price of that Brightside!) "The trouble with good ideas, is that they soon turn into a lot of hard work." Anon. By the way I got my mast materials from the Metal Warehouse in N'mo. The ?son of? the owner there seems like a good chap to deal with and is into sailing as well. My plywood came from the guy on the highway at the south end of Duncan whose place burned down a few months back. I think he's at the Genoa Bay marina now. Haven't seen a post from Greg L. since ?Sunday. Hope his "universe" is unfolding as it should. Again; what a great forum! Thanks all. Alexander.

[quote I wonder if he ever finished it? Well, not yet. Thanks Greg for the Email you sent. I'll post my reply below. Meantime, Brucee, where on Vancouver Island are you? I'm in Port Alberni (no snow ) .......... ........... "Hi Greg. Thanks for the enquiry; out of the blue! It's embarrassing to see that the thread you refer to dates from a little more than 4 years ago. In answer to your question, no, it's not finished. I have a handful of excuses: An illness needing intestinal surgery, a chronic back problem, and perfectionism. On this last score, before the inside was completely finished, I turned the hull over to have the fun of painting it. I think I'm on my 3rd can of Brightside (Dark Blue - probably a mistake) and it still doesn't look "good enough" to me. Maybe I have to take to heart the words of the chap who said "Remember it's only a boat." Other homestead-y things have interfered as well. Ability and/or enthusiasm for boatbuilding has been very sporadic. BUT I still want to complete it. One bit of good news is that the patched area on the bow is quite invisible on the outside. Many thanks for asking. I haven't looked at the forum for ages but it's time I did and re-kindled some passion. Maybe I'll post again if things don't turn out too disastrous! I'm Mr can't-leave-well-enough-alone which is the preamble for admitting I've messed with Graham's design and am concocting a pivoting leeboard (bilgeboard?) on one side. But maybe I should keep that to myself?!! Obviously I don't care about maximum performance - just having fun. Cheers, Alexander. PS - Before building the hull I did a cardboard model, scaled from the design drawings. It had a bit of a hollow in the flat underside, towards the stern. I wrote Graham about this & he said pay no attention: the fullsize with plywood will be OK. But despite my deliberately being a wee bit generous - giving the panels a shade more "meat" along the aft centreline - my finished hull has a slight but discernible hollow in the same place: i.e seen from the side it looks a little concave near the stern. Have you seen any similar comment from others?"

From what I've gleaned on the www, yes - Shelman's plywood is top grade. I think I read they even have a brand that is Lloyd's certified. But it seems some folks who call - and probably stamp - their product "1088" are selling stuff that's not literally up to that standard. One dealer's write-up described his 1088 plywood as being made to an "interpretation" of BS 1088. Sort of like "Based on a true story!" Alexander.

Garry, thanks for your comment about ply thicknesses. Like you I think my face & center plies are significantly thinner than they should be. You say your wood had BS 1088 stamped on it. Did it also have the BS official "Kitemark?" (I'll try to attach a picture of that in case it's not familiar.) I don't know whether (m)any manufacturers outside UK are really BSI certified or accredited or whatever the terminology is. Browsing the net I've come to the conclusion that some plywood makers call their product BS 1088 whether it's literally produced to the same standards or not. I found at least one who stated his 1088 stuff was made according to the BS standard "interpreted." Hmmm. I suspect there's material out there of highly variable quality, whose makers, distributors or retailers are calling it, and maybe stamping it, BS 1088 if it comes more-or-less close (or maybe not even that.) On my own wood there was only a handwritten sticky label. Obviously I should have examined the stuff more closely, but I'd had such a hard time finding it locally, I was too pleased to stop & think. Caveat emptor indeed! Alexander. [attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin]

Tom - can you give a description of how you use an outside batten? I haven't clued in to the concept. Attached is a close-up of my okume showing the ply thicknesses. Increasingly I think the thin face plies must have been part of my problem. Michel, I looked at Noah's (Toronto) website and thought the photos of their plywood didn't look all that much better from the standpoint of ply uniformity - but the pictures are a bit small to be sure. Alexander. [attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin]

Interesting thet you mention the face plies, Tom. I've been puzzled & disappointed in their thickness ever since I got the material. I'd read that "proper" marine ply would have equal thickness plies, but to my eye this stuff definitely does not. I just decided my info must be in error. The two faces and the centre layer are noticeably thinner than nos 2 & 4. I'll post a picture as soona as I can borrow my pal's digital camera. So do the folks on this forum manage to get Okume that has equal plies ??

I want to have access to the flotation voids on my Spindrift both for maintenence and "cargo" space. I'd like something bigger than those round plastic access plate that screw in. I see some mention earlier in this topic, of a hatch that Graham is using. Any news of it? Details? One thing I'm wondering about is the strapped-down hatch covers I've seen on kayaks. Maybe something similar could be devised. I want to get a look at one but as yet have no opportunity. Anybody know how they work; sealing & construction details? Alexander Miller.

Sorry, Greg; I don't have any better pictures of the plywood break(s) than the ones I already posted. I guess you were hoping for an edge-on look at the plywood? After the second fracture I kind of lost my enthusiaism for photographing them. The novelty definitely wore off !! The material is 5-ply Okume (6mm) purchased here on Vancouver Island where it's hard to find. When you can get it you take what there is. The sheets had handwriten labels attached, some saying 6566 and some 1088, but there was no such "official" stamp or imprint on the wood; so who knows? Am I naive to think that if it was to a British standard - especially 1088 - there would be a BS certification stamped on it ?? Where it broke I saw no obvious internal flaw, although the major part of each break seemed to run in a remarkably straight line. I'm done filleting: Just a wee bit of sanding left before taping the inside seams, which I hope to do tonight. I've got some questions about rope bumpers, watertight hatches and water ingress generally, but I guess this is not the thread where they should appear. Happy building to all here! Alexander Miller.

Thanks everyone for your input here. Sorry I haven't reported for a while - been workin' on (fighting with) my boat. First I want to say I thought Mustangermatt deserved some kind of award for undertaking a 17 foot boat in a 17 foot space. But that was before I saw Garry's pictures of his boat being unfolded in his living room. WIth female help, no less. Sorry, Matt - you've been upstaged. Well, as to the fresh disaster details I promised: we patched the broken piece back onto the bottom bow panel and proceeded to do the butterfly. Damned if the same panel didn't fail again on stitch-up, about 10-12 inches further aft. (Tom Lathrop is right - the failures have always started at a stich hole.) It didn't break right across the piece, but about two-thirds of the way, leaving a sprung jagged bit sticking out on the exterior of the bow. Crude attempts to force this back in place resulted in yet another crack starting to form behind it. I phoned Graham and he suggested perhaps I was not paying enough attention to tightening stitches gradually and symmetrically - probably true. So we abandoned the now deeply traumatised forward bottom panel: Cut it off and spliced on a pristine piece. This time we reinforced the forward panel edges with glass & epoxy where the highest-stress stitches would be before proceeding through all the steps till we were ready to unfold again. Well, I guess we were a bit impatient or cocky or just careless, but in unfolding we created a (much smaller) crack in the same old area, this time at the rear edge of the fibreglass that holds the side to the bottom panel a la butterfly. We re-folded and repaired the crack by filling it with epoxy as best we could, then sandwiching it between glass/epoxy patches. Allowed it to cure, again unfolded the boat and began stitching the sides to the bottom. Almost got that finished before the repair let go. The crack gaped outwards again, but this time less so, being somewhat restrained between its fibreglass patches. Being thouroughly fed up with folding & unfolding, stitching and unstitching, we decided the boat would damn well go together this time, regardless. So first a mess of epoxy was poured down the gaping area, between the inner & outer glass patches, then the offending area was sandwiched between two pieces of 1/4 ply, bolted right through; the inner piece bonded to the hull with epoxy and the outer one dry with poly protection to keep it from getting stuck. Once the epoxy cured, stainless countersunk screws were used to screw the hull to the inner plywood patch, and the bolts were removed. Gobs of thickened epoxy are being used as fillets and sanded so that the inside seam taping can traverse the patch smoothly. The result is an ugly plywood patch which will never be seen, inside the fwd flotation space; and an almost-fair seam on the outside, which will be filled and sanded till it looks OK. As of this evening our hull finally has its stitches removed and is filleted ready for inside seam-taping tomorrow. It's been a long haul and I think we've stitched & unstitched most of the boat 4 times. But hey, it looks good !!!!! On balance I think most of my problems stem from not proceeding cautiously enough. Unfolding and stitch-tightening require great care - even a heightened state of awareness. If you don't have it, you will develop it !! Steve Day, you unfolded your boat single-handed? I'm awestruck. Thanks again to all here, Alexander Miller. Two or three pictures are attached but they're all of the earliest disasters - after a while it gets tiresome to keep recording the failures. [attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin]

I have fresh disasters to report - very embarassing! Details will be posted in a couple of days, with photographs (assuming THOSE aren't screwed up!!) We're having a "Let's not look at the boat" day tomorrow. But never fear, we're stubborn and will be back at it soon. Meantime thanks to all for your good wishes and good advice. "If, at first......." Alexander - & Pat - Miller

Thanks, Mustangermatt, for the condolences & info. The fractured panel is now in splints & curing as per Graham's advice. It was a bit painful to undo all that stitching and get back to pre-assembly status. How much headroom do you think the CS17 needs, to "unfold as it should?" Of course I'm already fantasizing about a bigger boat. I wonder what it would need to unfold a CS20 javascript:emoticon(':P') Did you build the one in the picture? Now THAT's a boat. Ah, just saw the encouraging post from Terry Dunn. Thanks, Terry. So we both have trouble following instructions, eh? javascript:emoticon(':?')How much headroom did you have? What a great forum this is. Alexander. "Many people believe they are thinking when they are simply rearranging their prejudices"[/img]

Apolgies if this is double-posted: My computer seems to be acting up (What ELSE is new??) Thanks, Graham, for your swift reply stating, in part; "I can't emphasise enough, how important it is to go back to the butterfly method. The reason that it works so well is that the maximum load is, as you found out, is at chine forward and the extra length of the sides gives you lots of leverage and you don't even notice the strain at the chine bow area." Which is pretty much what my wife said tonight. Sheesh!! I'll post some follow-up once I recover my aplomb. Alexander. "Take it easy, but take it" - Pete Seeger.

All in due course. I'm a Luddite - still using FILM.

I've Emailed Graham about this, but it's Friday evening, and meantime any & all comments/advice are welcomed. Trying to pull the bottom panels of spindrift 12 together at the bow needed a lot more force than could be got from twisting stitch wires. A clamping method was devised but before the points of the panels could be brought into contact, one side broke :cry: :cry: about 3" back from the tip. The wood is 1/4" marine okume and I see no internal defect where it failed. Of course when it let go, a number of stitch wires also tore out of the wood and it's quite a mess. 2, no; 3, well; 4 questions: Anybody else had this happen? How do most folks get the bottom panels to mate at the very bow? How should I repair the panel? How can I complete the boat without re-fracturing after repair?