Ambler

All really good points worth noting, Howard. Fortunately I've been rowing for about 65 years (ouch - but not continuously!) so I was generally wise to them and made sure things fit me before they were cast in epoxy. And I made the footrest adjustable for shorter folks. Anyone doing this be aware the vertical sides of the flotation compartments are not fore-&-aft parallel to each other. The lighter coloured backing to my "over the waves" rack is actually a plywood piece planed to a taper; a detail of which as an inexpert woodworker I'm quite proud.

Good information PAR, thanks. I'm pondering the relative pros & cons of the tiller "stick" vs a straight telescopic extension; would be interested to hear others' thoughts & - especially - experience. I guess the size as well as the use of the boat would have a bearing on the which to choose.

Ha! Half the time my tiller is too short, the other half it's too long. Who's got a good design for a telescoping or folding tiller on a small sailboat? What are pros & cons of different types?

11 minutes is pretty impressive. What boat have you, & what did you do to make this possible? Do you keep it on a trailer or what? Conditions at my local ramp - congestion and lack of a dock where I can rig the boat - make things awkward. Luckily a friend lets me moor at his dock for most of the summer, plus I'm retired and can avoid sailing at the weekends with their mobs of not-always-considerate powerboaters. "People understand me so poorly that they don't even understand my complaint about them not understanding me." (Soren Kierkegaard)

Ken: This is puzzling to me; a complete misreading of me and a misinterpretation of my post. It happens on forums I guess. Ken & Tom151: If the "sig" and Tom's comment on it were directed at me - as they pretty obviously seem to be - they'd be just about the worst example I've seen on this forum, of deliberate personal insult. Too bad. Way too bad.

Ken & Frank: This is puzzling to me and pretty sarky-snarky; a complete misreading of me and a misinterpretation of my post. It happens, I guess; too bad.

Charlie: Fair enough is fair enough! My reasons for going with an external pivoting board were several, probably including some I've forgotten. Chief among them were: - Desire for more unobstructed room in the cockpit (heavily influenced by my age and increasing lack of agility. In fact I would do away with the centre seat if I didn't need it for rowing.) - Past experience with a leaky C/B case that I never managed to cure. - Concern with the possibility of damaging the hull/case if striking an u/w obstacle with a dagger board. Please be aware that I have no interest in competitive sailing or in squeezing the maximum performance out of the boat. It was built solely for my own uses and my own satisfaction. I enjoy experimenting with it and utterly reject any notion that .... well, I'm getting wound up again but you probably get my meaning Difficulties with the board have been in recovery after knockdown – discussed elsewhere but again involving agility issues – and with the system for lowering/raising the board. I've been using ropes but it's hard to get an efficient arrangement that never gets tangled or snagged. I think a straightforward lever would be better and I may try that in due course.

My reasons for buying Graham's plans, and my use of them, (unless I violate some copyright) are my own and are personal; private unless I choose to share them and not subject to anyone else's assumptions, definitions or declarations. (In actual fact I didn't buy the plans; they were a delightful present from my loving wife but that's irrelevant and equally no one else's business.) I do hope to hear from folks with details of mods & adaptations they have made; whether those changes achieved the desired result, and what was learned in the process. I'm not so interested in splitting hairs about what amounts, or does not, to a "design change" or interested in what anyone "would never think of doing" unless a) they've actually tried the change and in consequence have decided never to do it again. or (b they can show specific and valid physical reasons for dismissal of the idea. I have great admiration for Graham and Carla and for his design of the little Spindrift 12 (which I am proud to own) as well as for their helpful advice when I was building it. Please DO NOT - anyone - try to suggest otherwise.

It would be interesting to hear about members' modifications, adaptations & departures from the detailed design of boats they have built or acquired. What changes were made, to what extent did they achieve the desired result; what was learned in the process? I'm talking about sharing actual experience with real changes to real boats. Personally I'm specifically interested in Spindrift 12 but I believe any & all shared experience is potentially useful.

I started this thread so that we could share information on a specific issue. I ask that people stick to the subject which is knockdown recovery. Please do not sidetrack this discussion. However interesting they may be to you and others, different issues deserve, and belong in, their own threads. Here; I've started one: http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/9205-design-modifications/

I suppose people who adapt designs generally do it for their own reasons, but this is off topic (knockdown recovery.) You could start a separate thread, which might be quite interesting.

Thanks for your input, Ken. The water is now warmer but newer issues prevent me sail-rigging the boat for some time - maybe till next year. (I dropped & damaged the mast.) Meantime I'll use it for a little outboarding & try some fishing. The suggestion that by hauling on the mainsheet I was holding water in the sail seems very probably correct. I still pormise to update this thread as soon as I can get back to recovery experiments.

I don't know where it was manufactured. It's marine Okume and was advertised and labelled - but not stamped - as "BS 1088." That standard was already "no longer supported" by BSI; but some manufacturers claimed (and still do?) to produce material that adheres to it. I think mine did not quite measure up, as the face veneers looked thinner than the cores; and I partly blame that for the fracture, which propagated straight along a line of the face grain. If you're interested you can read the whole sorry thread at: http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/1926-spindrift-12-setback-plywood-fracture/ (although the ugly photo attachments have been deleted.) I found no evidence of core voids although one sheet had a kind of slight hump across it, possibly at a splice in one of the veneers. I think my repair is brutally strong. After several years of not-so-gentle use It hasn't shown any sign of distress. Nor have any other areas of the plywood.

Striperick, I don't know the details of your boat but I had an ugly fracture near the stem when building my Spindrift 12. Tried sandwich-patching etc but it broke 3 times! (I blame it on substandard plywood.) I eventually rough-shaped a wood block to fit the inside face, bedded it in thickened resin and screwed it in place through the plywood - pulling the broken edges into approx where they should be. Finished by filling & sanding outside. The wood block is inside the fwd flotation chamber so no one but me knows about it Maybe that approach isn't an option on your boat but I thought I'd share the "technique." Good luck with your boat and I hope you enjoy both building & sailing her.

Well the local water got cold and I'm not into more recovery experimenting till it warms again in spring, but meantime the boat is hanging quite high in my workshop (so that I can play with the leeboard controls.) Trying to figure out how I can right the boat if knocked down with the board retracted and on the high side, I've concluded that the best plan would be to never retract the board except in shallow water. Yes I'll have more drag than necessary going downwind but so what? I'm not that interested in absolute max performance anyway. Any comments?

Thanks Graham and others who took the time to read & respond to my lengthy post. The disadvantage of lee- as opposed to centre-board when recovering, as pointed out by Graham, has certainly made itself obvious. Apart from that I'm puzzled as to why I found recovery so difficult compared with the experience of others. I could ascribe some of it to a combination of physical decrepitude and lack of confidence/experience; but it doesn't seem as if those would be enough to account for my difficulties.I will be practicing again but not immediately - I've temporarily lost access to the dock and shallow area I was using. The boat's parked at home for a while.The CS17 knockdown posts were instructive but I'm disappointed there seems to be little discussion on the forum about Spindrift recovery. (Mine is 12' non-nesting.) Is the over-90 degree knocked-down position typical, with most of the mast & all of the sail fully submerged? And if so do folks not find it helpful or necessary to bring down the sail before trying to right the boat?I'll post back here eventually, once I've had another go at this.

I have a self-built, much-modified (or sacreligiously butchered – sorry, Graham) Spindrift 12. With my friend Peter I have belatedly and not very successfully been experimenting with knockdown recovery. I'd be glad to hear of others' experience with righting and re-boarding this or any other small boat. For the record I'm 76, a bit overweight, never did have any muscle to speak of and am subject to various pains & stiffnesses. Friend Peter Ferguson is skinnier and a bit younger and that's all I'll say about him in public; but you can discount athleticism or youthful vigour for both of us. The boat is cat-rigged and departs from Graham's design, but only in 4 relevant ways: - “Lee” board on one side (bilge board? sideboard? ) instead of a centre/dagger board. - Lowest mast section is smaller OD but thicker than design spec., therefore a bit heavier. - Top (wood) section is a bit heavier, includes 2 sheaves (plastic pulleys on SS bolts) - Sail is laced and hoisted on a halyard rather than sleeved. There is also a topping lift. The first trial involved both myself and Peter. We deliberately capsized the boat onto its side in chest-deep water – deep enough for swimming but where we could stand on the bottom if necessary. We mostly swam but despite much effort were unable to right the boat without a footing. It lay over more than 90 degrees, floating high but with the tip of the mast resting on the bottom! It's an aluminum tube and I assume it had filled with water. I wonder if the boat would have turned right over in deeper water. We eventually “cheated” by standing on the bottom to push it upright. When we did get it righted neither of us was able to re-enter from the water, even with piggy-back or bum-shoving assistance from the other. The whole exercise involved much struggle and we were very tired. Following this experience I plugged each mast section at both ends with spray foam and confirmed that they would float. Also cut a toe-hole near the bottom of the rudder to help with re-entry. On the next opportunity for play I went solo in the same shallows as before. This test was more successful but still exhaustingly strenuous, with several failed attempts at both righting and re-entry. I confess that I was more often standing then swimming. I did eventually succeed – only just - in righting while swimming, and with the boat knocked down on either side (once with leeboard on the high side and once on the low) and in re-entering over the stern. But I was totally thrashed and I wouldn't fancy my chances in rougher wind & water, alone and swimming, All in all I was in the water almost 2 hours, determined to learn as much as I could – and to succeed if at all possible. Here are some observations after this second experience: Knocked down, the boat still lay over past 90 degrees, putting the mast tip maybe 18 inches below the surface; but it did not sink to the bottom. There can be way too much loose line trailing dangerously in the water. Whatever isn't already secured aboard, (or should have been) has to be gathered and stashed somehow. Items normally aboard should be secured or captive before leaving the dock (Oars! Oarlocks! - lost one, bronze :( ) Depending on your rig, the boom may “rise” to float parallel to the mast, with the sail bellying down into, and full of, the water. I had to pull in & secure the mainsheet to bring the boom back down to deck level. I then threw the free end of the sheet over the hull as I'd need something to hang onto when I would go round to the other (keel) side. I had learned this on the previous trial, with Peter. The sail now lay flat but still below the surface. I'd theorised that I could maybe right the boat by pulling down on the up-in-the-air rudder. But that was useless. Even if the rudder fittings could have stood the strain, it didn't provide anywhere near enough leverage. Back round on the keel side, after several failed attempts to right the boat using the leeboard as leverage, I realised that: 1) the mainsheet I'd thrown over – or some other rope - was absolutely essential. Depending whether the (slippery!) leeboard was on the high or low side, I could neither reach up to it nor climb onto it without assistance from the rope. Even then it was quite difficult & strenuous. 2) The hull is too slippery to brace your feet against when pulling on a rope. 3) I didn't have enough weight to counteract the waterlogged sail on the other side. We had recognised this problem in the previous trial but I guess I was hoping it would have just gone away! 4) Everything could be much easier with 2 people, given a well-rehearsed plan 5) I should always wear my lifejacket. (Halfway through, with a mouth and nose full of water I realised it was on the dock.) So back round the boat I went and manhandled the sail down the mast (lacing is not the best rigging arrangement for this) then bundled as much sail as I could out of the water and over the boom – which had to be held close to the centre of the hull by keeping the mainsheet taut. Back round on the keel side, this eventually let me bring the boat upright by hanging onto the rope & either leaning back while sitting on the submerged board, or reaching up to grab & hang from it, depending on which side the boat was capsized. Getting back aboard over the stern was made possible but not easy by the toe-hole in the rudder. A second hole higher up would be useful. As it was, and tired as I was, I had to get my free leg up over the transom/gunwale (fighting cramp!) and pull myself up by hanging onto the outboard bracket and/or the end of the boom (held up by the toplift). I don't remember what worked best. Apart from the details of how I “survived,” the main things I learned are that it's essential to develop a plan and practice it – reading how-tos won't cut it - and that the whole thing can be a fiercely exhausting struggle. I need to find ways to make it simpler and less effort-full. A better plan in fact. I wonder what would change with a sleeved, “always-up” sail. How to get it out of the water? Would a temporary masthead float be some help? (tie on a couple of fenders?) AND I'm wondering how I could deal with a knockdown if the board was not only uppermost but retracted and therefore unreachable from the water. Ouch!! Lots of questions! I'd love to hear others' thoughts & experiences on the subject ..... Alexander Miller

It's a test - ????

Thanks all for the helpful info & suggestions. I'd been visualising something like sewn-in rings with brass grommet-style protection. Apparently you'd all see that as overkill - great! But I'm not keen on the type of cheap grommets you get at hardware/camping stores. My experience using them with polytarps has not been good. The lugged Duckworks grommets look like a big improvement, especially if used with the hot-punch hole melting process mentioned in the feedback from Andrew, on their site: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sailmaking/grommets/index.htm But it'll be the first time I've taken a hot poker to my sail!

I want to use an existing sail on my (nearing completion) cat-rig dinghy. The sail has a bolt-rope that originally slid - or didn't - in a grooved mast. Now I want to use it with hoops or possibly lacing on my new tubular mast. The luff length is about 16 feet. I don't know what kind of spacing would be right for the hoops or lacing eyes. Also have trouble deciding how to make the eyes and finding appropriate hardware for them - rings, grommets etc. Economy is an issue Helpful comments & suggestions welcome - especially if based on actual experience! Alexander Vancouver Island.

Thanks for the replies, Hirilonde And Tom. I've been away for a while and didn't see them till now. Sadly I only have "half of" a cat ketch so that solution isn't available to me I think Tom has it right: with tiller abandoned the boat can only be kept head-to-wind, or on some stable heading, by an external force (such as your tow rope, Hirilonde.) In fact during an insomniac night I'd already decided it would be worth while to try a sea anchor dragged from the bow, with the rudder and board raised. Wondered if the sail should be sheeted in but probably best let fly. The boat isn't launched yet - solstice is the "fully rigged" target date - so I can't try it now. But it's the only solution I can think of other than a rig that can rotate 360, or altering the underwater geometry with a forward board that only gets lowered for heaving-to. I'm not about to try either of those, but on the latter I seem to remember reading that Thor Heyerdahl carried out sailing maneouvres on the square-sail Kon-Tiki raft by simply shoving boards down between the logs at varying fore-&-aft locations. I guess recalling that, betrays my age (sorry, make that "vintage" .....) Cheers, Alexander.

Well, I put hatches in the top of the seats/flotation on my spindrift 12 (not yet launched.) Intention was (still is?) to build collapsible oars that could be stowed there - probably among other things. That meant I had to position the hatches at one end of each compartment, otherwise I wouldn't be able to feed the oars or paddles into the space. All well & good, but now I realise each access hatch is at one end of a six-foot space. Since I only have 3 foot arms I'm going to have to be crafty about what I store in there and how to retrieve it! Hadn't thought of that before. Maybe should have Alexander.

This query arises from experience with my previous cat-rigged dinghy, which had a shroud-supported mast. I'm thinking it's probably common to any non-wishbone catboat with the mast positioned forward (of the center of the hull's lateral resistance?) The problem was as follows: If I had to leave the sail untended for some reason, in any sort of a breeze, I'd bring us head to wind & let go the sheet; but left to its own devices the boat would fall off the wind until the boom fetched up on the shroud, then the sail would fill and suddenly we'd be sailing again, out of control - heading up with a sickening swoop until the sail would once more luff head-to-wind; whereupon the cycle would be repeated for as many times as it took me to get back in command of the situation. Not the kind of experience I enjoy, by myself in a small boat with a stiff breeze blowing. I'm building a B&B Spindrift 12 and I'd love to be able to avoid having this sort of experience with it. But short of rigging it so the sail can swing through 360 degrees (how could I do that?) I can't imagine a way to avoid the problem. How do others avoid or handle this situation?

Thanks for the kind words, Brucee & Greg. Since my last post, I've done quite a lot of work without making much progress. The main problem is that I've been striving for a level of perfection on the interior which I'm just not capable of achieving. So after hours of sanding, re-coating where I'm through the epoxy and back to bare wood, etc, etc, I'm deciding that it won't ever be good enough and it's time to stop trying. I've applied the last patches of re-coat and when they have been giving a light sanding That's the LAST sanding I will do. All existing lumps, dags, gouges & scratches will become part of the finished boat; evidence of my loving handwork. "It's only a boat!" Now I've been disappointed to see no feedback to my description of the "luff & swoop" behaviour of my previous boat. No point repeating it here but I think I'll post it as a new thread and hope for some response from more experienced sailors than I. Cheers, Ambler