mustangermatt

Sorry, didn't get it in time :-) We put in at Keystone and sailed to Port Townsend, had dinner and came back. My wife took pictures but we need to get them scanned to post. We'll be at Kayak Pt. park on Camano Is. next weekend with the boat for my sons birthday party, and sailing someplace on Sunday (TBD :-)

Finally gat everything together and splashed the boat today. Sorry no pics but we're going sailing again tomorrow and I will try to get some. The boat has a pair of penguin mainsails (used from bacon sails) that increase the sail area by about 15%, which meant moving the mizzen aft 1/2" and the centerboard aft 3". Things worked out well, it carries neutral helm in light air. I also used more traditional booms (solid spruce like the masts) to go with the loose footed sails rather than try to adapt the sails to sprits.. I was suprised at how little wind it takes to move this boat. Good job Graham.

Is this area built to plans? Where does the "side bulkhead" under the seat meet the thwart? Is it possible the thwart is causing the unsupported portion of the seat ply to deflect?

For what it's worth, I just finished putting cloth on my cs 17 today. I had previously taped the seams first with two layers per the plan, some light sanding and fairing in the worst spots. I layed glass cloth over this (overlapping the seams). It made for a lot easier job getting the hull fair, and I knew whatever happened during the application of the glass, the seams had been done the way they were designed :-) I will be putting the keel on next weekend without glass. It probably doesn't matter with the smaller boats, but for lack of foresight I have had to flip my boat twice, and this last time it was a bit of a bugger since the boats interior and decks are done ;-)

I used uhmw plastic as shoes on the runners of my dog sled. It will take gravel, pavement, you name it. A few passes with a plane cleans it nicely.

I added transverse frames rather than change the direction of the grain (I assume you are using fir and referring to Grahams suggestion). I did stress tests on scraps of my plywood and found : a) Standing on a seat/deck is more of a concern than sitting because the weight is not as well distributed. About 14"-15" square was about as large an area as I was comfortable with being unsupported so that is where I put my 1x2 framing in seats and decks. I weigh about 185lbs., so you may want to revisit my demensions. I just laid 1x2 sticks in a rectangle on the ground simulating the frame spacing, dropped a piece of 1/4" ply on them and stood in the middle. If it was very springy or made cracking noises the span was too much (for my confidance anyway). The extra framing was less than 8 lbs. of wood, but a lot more time consuming than Joe's solution. I had a picture of the seat frames in an old post: http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2432

You certainly are confused Oyster :-) I think if you read back through this thread you will find that I have been careful not to promote any point of view in order to get unjaded opinions from others. I think you will also find as you read back that you have partaken in name calling more than once on this thread. If you must be so confrontational please refrain from posting to my threads. Thank you

Ray, I think we are thinking of different animals :-) I certainly agree that traditional plank on frame construction is usually about twice as heavy as ply, and would be totally inappropriate for a coresound. I was thinking more of the veneer planked hulls that Chris Craft used to build. Years ago I had a 1948 33' chris craft sedan cruiser on which the hull was very lightly framed and had 3 layers of mahogany veneers laid at 45 degree angles to each other. The final layer ran fore and aft so there is the impression that the planking is carvel, but it's not at all. Each layer had painted canvas in between, I don't remember what kind of fasteners were used. The total thickness of the planking was not more than 3/8", I don't think you could build a ply boat that size any lighter. Certainly the ply boat would require similar framing/bulkeads as the Chris did. I don't know the all up weight of the sedan cruiser, but when I was living aboard with all my crap and my dog and my dogs crap (I mean stuff) it would still easily cruise at 22 knots and max at 28 with a pair of 230 CI chevy inline sixs (maybe 250 Hp total ?). You can't say that for most modern glass boats :-) It would be interesting to build a boat (even a coresound) using this method with epoxy/glass in between veneers rather than painted canvas. But then that would be cold molded, wouldn't it. Still, it would be the prettiest core sound ever built :-) and the most expensive :-)

I have seen enough fenders go over the side due to parted lines in 20 years as master of tugs and ferries to know that they can spin and break a good line. Perhaps not a 4" kicker boat fender, but I gaurantee that a number of large fenders were lost that way off the Victoria Clipper (see left) in the 7 years I was on her due to forgetful deckhands and unobservant mates. Hell I've forgotten a few myself over the years :-) On the ocean tugs we normally unstrung the truck tires hung along the sheer and stowed them belowdecks prior to leaving protected waters or the seas would break the chains and carry the fendering away.

One real advantage to "wetting out" the ply first is it gives the epoxy a chance to be absorbed by the wood. If you don't do this you run a high risk of having starved areas where the wood sucks the epoxy right out of the glass from underneath. I don't let the wetting out coat harden, I just let it sit there for 5- 10 minutes before I lay the glass out.

Not only do the inwales define the hull shape, but I found when I put the stiffeners in the bottom forward the shape faired out quite a bit.

Oh, sorry Greg... VIVA LA GOOGE !! There :-)

Oysters post doesn't really address what I was thinking of. I will try to be be more concise. All the tugs I worked on were either steel or very heavily constructed wood (VERY heavily constructed). This is a case were the more traditional plank on frame will way out perform anything we could put together with plastic and glass. On the other hand I don't want to try and pull that tug on a trailer with my wifes minivan either. The real question I am asking is in the case of a small trailerable sail boat (like the coresound), is epoxy and glass over ply the best solution? I know aluminium has been done (whatever happened with the "tin bin" anyway It came out heavy I think, as would steel in this size. Maybe double diagonal planked mahogany like the old chris's? Foam cored fiberglass? I have done some of that and it is easier than working with ply, but I hate doing it because it doesn't evoke the same feel as wood working. Maybe thats the key. I like to work with the wood, so my next boat will be plank on frame, maybe? whoops, sorry, started to cross over a little there. VIVA LA GOOGE!!

The reason fenders over the side is bad seamanship is that they spin, sometimes breaking the line.

Maybe a little more consideration of service intended would be fair?

I am just finishing an epoxy coated cs 17 so I obviously have confidence in the building method. But your point about maintanence brings up another question. Has it been the experience of those here that people who buy epoxy coated boats are less careful about maintanence in some misguided belief that the epoxy coating is indestructable?

On my CS 17 I built a rowing seat that extends forward from the thwart on top of the centerboard trunk. It takes the place of the cap in the plans. This moves the oar locks forward instead of aft. If you have ever tried to row a boat from to far aft into a head wind you will appreciate why I went forward instead of aft :wink: Also this way I can avoid smacking the back of my head on the mizzen every time I start to get my back into it. At least that was my logic, I plan on launching next month so I will tell you if it worked then. :shock:

Dinasours? Ouch Actually there seem to be about an equal number of people arguing both sides of the question on their forum. And even a few holding the middle ground that it depends on usage etc. Seems people are building the glued lap boats with epoxy only on the lap joints, no sheathing. What caught my attention was the fact that most people I have interacted with on the forums will choose okoume ("non-durable"?), and even some on this forum are comparing wood weight and using the fact that one doesn't need to be glassed as evidence of additional weight/labor savings. So am I hearing that no epoxy encapsulation sounds like a recipe for a short lived boat?

There is a pretty interesting debate going on at the wooden boat builders forum. It seems that there are people starting to question the wisdom of encapsulating a plywood boat in epoxy. I grabbed a somewhat :wink: random sample of what they are saying. You have to give the guy credit for guts to say a thing like this in a world of okoume boat builders (who me? stir the pot? never! 8) )

P Doug, a friend and I built a few dog sled years ago. We use 4" pvc hooked to a my wifes canning pot, with a hose from where the canning pots pressure releif valve was. We just stuck caps on the ends (on with a 1/4" hole to relieve pressure). Worked great for sled runners and bows. We could bend 1x2 oak 180 degrees in a radius of 18 inches. I expect you might need a little more than 4 inch pipe if your doing planks though.

your not kidding your in my area, I probably see you every morning on I-5 on the way to work :wink: I will try to figure the message thing out tonight, I probably have to turn something on on my end maybe.

Just to further muddy the waters I keep talking about Fir being less stiff across the outer grain in the three ply 1/4". What I havent mentioned is that its alot stiffer with the grain than okoume (longer fibers). I have also heard Meranti is alot stiffer than okoume. I really earned my pay when I folded the bow together, I think the guys who use okoume have a little easier time in this regard. All things considered if I had it to do again I would still choose fir, but then I grew up with these trees so I am not totaly unbiased :-)

The article mentions that donuts, honey, and two cans of rainier as bait in the trap worked... No kidding, it works on me all the time :-)

The owners of Flounderbay retired a few weeks ago. The shop went to a guy that makes musical instruments or something and he is planing on turning it into some kind of "cultural center". Or so the rumor goes :-) Don't lock yourself into okoume right off the bat. I used doug fir marine grade on my cs 17. The okoume is easier to work with (tighter grain), and in the 1/4" thickness has more plys and fairly equal stiffness both with and across the surface grain. I just reduced the frame centers a little in the seat tops and decks to keep these areas stiff when I walk on them. I probably would have done this with okuome as well since I anticipate some rough usage. As far as weight, the research I did showed fir and okoume to be comparable in weight. The difference is that you have to seal or glass the fir to keep the grain from lifting. But it would be a really bad idea (IMO) to leave the oukume unglassed as it will quickly deteriorate under the abrasion of normal use. All in all I have added about 20lbs through my construction choices including a few extra 1x2 frames and glass on the seat tops, decks, and bilge (these areas take ALOT of abuse with things getting dropped on them etc). I plan on losing the extra weight off of my beer gut to make up for the difference :-) Now for the real reason to consider fir (and I have said this before ) Douglas fir is grown in the forests of the western US and Canada, under fairly reasonable renewable resource regulation (for the most part). Okoume on the other hand is imported from many countries, many of which are known for their deforestation practices. As amature boatbuilders using ply wood become a larger part of the market for these trees we should start considering the long term affect our simple choices of material are having.

Since all the wood in a coresound is sealed with epoxy, yes your worries about dampness are unfounded (mostly). If you don't want to do wood work then you could buy the manufactured hatches from a marine supplier.