Jump to content

Sails...opinions and viewpoints needed!


ScottWidmier

Recommended Posts

Well, progress on Knot Yacht, my secret weapon, has stalled as I get over some sort of bug.  However, I have spent the time in my sick bed thinking about sails for the boat and I need everyone's advice.  First, a big thanks to PAR (Paul) as he has been a great sounding board on things.

My original plan was to cut down the old worn out mainsail of my MacGregor 26D as a way to get out on the water quicker.  In addition, I would reuse a nice mast I built for a previous boat.  I went ahead and cut down the sail but found the combination of bad material and length of mast left me with too small a sail for a boat that I want to see fly.  So, I am buying some polytarp and plan on making up a new sail for my October 9th deadline.

I have used the Sailmakers Apprentice and Gavin's wonderful sail area calculation website (http://home.clara.net/gmatkin/bd_sailcalc.html) and have come up with three sail plans that have a CE that will fit my boat.  Two of them have the additional advantage of not requiring me to add length to my existing 12'6" mast creating a possible point of weakness.

The first of the two sails I so favor is a low-peak gaff sail with a luff of 8', Gaff of 7.67', Foot of 10', a Gaff angle of 31 degrees, and a total area of 88.65'.  I have about 10' of height above the boom leaving me an additional 2' above the gaff jaws for leverage or possibly more headroom under the boom.  I have a sliding gooseneck I bought from duckworksmagazine.  The second sail is a four sided sprit rig with a luff of 10', Head of 6.66, Head angle of 60 (both of these go into the gaff blank on atkin's calculator), a foot of 9.44', and a total area of 91.77'.  The luff is the maximum on this mast but I can get away using all of it on a sprit rig.  There is no additional room for the possibility of raising the boom.  Both sails will be attached to the mast by a zipped on luff tube for greater performance.  I stole this idea from the Wharram catamaran designs.

The advantage of the sprit rig lays both in the brailing line and free-rotating mast.  The brailing line, with one pull, folds the sail up against the mast out of my way in the cockpit.  In strong following winds or when beaching, you can let go of the mainsheet and the sail will windvane out over the bow.  Both of these are an advantage with a small boat sailing in windy conditions.  I would use a boom with this rig to help the leverage but I have a simple design to use the brailing line with the boom.

The advantage of the Gaff rig is it has no bad tack (no sprit to cut the shape of the sail on one tack) and you can do more fiddly adjustments to it in order to improve performance.  Of course, it takes a lot longer to raise the Gaff sail than it does to deploy a spritsail. 

So, which rig do you think I should use and why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Scott,

I hope this turns into a good thread.  I'm wanting to build something and the itch is very, very strong.  I'm wanting something to mainly single-hand daysail.  Something I can rig quickly and row reasonably well when the wind dies.  Not interested in a motor.  I also would like for it to be sufficient for the FL 120 which I would love to do next year.  Right now, I leaning heavily towards John Welsford's Daniel's Boat.  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/danielsboat/index.htm

He has it drawn with a sprit rig.  The boat is 12'4" and judging by the drawing the sail has a luff of about 14' and a perpendicular of about 8.  He says the sail is 56 sq.ft.  I'm ok with that rig but I have always wondered how much it's effeciency would be affected on the one tack.  I also would wonder if more sail area could be added for light wind and downwind - perhaps a bow sprit and roller furled jib like the guy in that beautiful 10 footer at the 120.  He was doing 3-4 knots in light wind in that thing if I understand the videos correctly.

Can you reveal your secret designs LOA/LWA and beam?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW - what do you think of Daniel's Boat?  I like the length, love the lines, and like the fact that it is a lapstrake boat but with only 3 strakes per side.  Should give it a great look without being too labor intensive.  I really like the Navigator but way too much boat for me to build right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Florida 120 in some ways is held in such a benign place that the boat requirements to finish the trip aren't really that strenuous.  However, there are a few requirements for the Florida 120. 

First, the boat has to sail to windward well.  This is an up and back trip during which you will have to be sailing to windward and the better your boat points the quicker you will make it to the next stop.  Heck, going under the Perdido bridge against tide and wind taxed all the boats and most only made it through thanks to a motor or a tow.  In my case, I rowed like crazy till past the bridge and then jumped in a waded with the boat behind me until I was out of the tide race. 

Second, the boat needs to be able to make progress against a chop.  There are times on the trip that powerboats, tide, and/or wind can put up a progress halting chop.  Little Gem can point to windward but her hull and bow means chop can bring her to a standstill.  One day, I made progress by hugging the shoreline where there was less chop.  The other, I was just slow into camp.

Third, you need some sort of contingency for light winds.  On the Florida 120 this can be as simple as calling for a tow from engine equipped boats or carrying a motor yourself.  However, I wanted to do the trip without the assistance of a motor so this meant making sure I could make decent progress under oar. 

Fourth, you need enough capacity to carry 2 days worth of supplies and comforts.  Of course, there are plenty of resupply points on the Florida 120 and I plan on having them marked for next year along with bathroom stops so 2 days worth is arbitrary and really only if you get stuck out in bad weather.  I carried 4 days worth on Little Gem and ended dumping gallons of water at the end of the trip and taking a lot of food out of the boat.

I am familiar with Daniel's Boat in general and Welsford as a designer.  His boats do seem to point well and he has a way of designing his bows that really can cut through chop.  He also has oarlocks designed into the boats so I think this design would cover all of the bases.  If I were building it, however, I would look at adding more sail area for the light-wind days we had on the trip and have a good system set up for reefing if needed.  I have a feeling that Daniel's boat was designed for younger inexperienced sailors where it is better to be underpowered than over.  However, when depending on the wind to make miles you almost want the reverse.

Of Welsford's boats I would really consider the Walkabout (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/walkabout/index.htm) since it is designed for these types of challenges and, with its longer waterline, would make better progress under oar.  Being able to sleep on the boat is not required for the Florida 120 but is desirable for dingy cruising in a lot of other locations.  For a shorter boat, I really like Houdini because of its capacity and comfort in sleeping on-board.  Welsford designed Houdini as his escape boat and it truly is magical in how much boat he fit into a short package.

As for my "secret weapon" I will probably fold at some point and post the particulars but the boat was designed based upon my camp-cruising experiences including the Florida 120 and small boat racing.  My basic goal was to create something with camp-cruising capacity that would sail fast in light (sub 5mph) winds but adaptable enough to take out in 30mph winds.  This meant a big but easily reef-able sailing rig on a boat that would recover easily from a knock down.  I contemplated a bigger rig on Little Gem but if she ever got knocked down it would probably take an hour to recover my gear, bail and dry her out (great story by Welsford on a knockdown like that in his book).  So, that means open transom with a raised sole and all storage behind waterproof hatches so all you would need to do is right her and go.  This raised sole turned into a great place to sleep with a simple, easy to setup, and lightweight boomtent for shelter.  A bottle of clean water or a bailing bucket of saltwater would suffice to wash off sand and debris from the day leaving a nice clean surface to roll out the therma-rest on.  Finally, being an experimental boat I wanted to keep the length under 12' so I wouldn't have to get her registered (no motor). 

I will tell you that my boat's bow is narrow, almost plumb, with straight sides but aft there is an incredible amount of flare which means I can get all of my weight easily out past the bottom chine.  Great amount of leverage against the wind.  I am hoping to use this boat on the Florida 120, Texas 200, and eventually the Everglades Challenge.  If this design works, I may extend it to 16' for a two-person camp cruiser with the same design basics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I have an idea of the kind of boat you are building. 

I do like the description of Walkabout.  In fact, a guy just bought one and posted on JW's forum:  "For all you potential Walkabout builders and owners. This is a fantastic boat! In light air conditions today she broad reached up to 5 knots, most of the time

she was moving at between 3 and 4.2 knots. I was getting 4 knots to windward in

the puffs and I was easily able to row her at 2.5 to 3 knots."  She sounds great but may be more boat than I want to build right now.

So, 12' is the majic number for registering?  Guess that would leave out DB at 12'4".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scott, or anyone else,

If you were going to build something in the 12-13' category for daysailing and the FL 120 (thinking of Scott's listed requirements above), of stock plans, what would you build?

I've considered Daniel's Boat, the Bateau C12 (Scott's "Little Gem"), the Bateau Corsair 13, B&B's Sprindrift 12 - maybe a few others but I don't really want a super complicated build as in a lapstrake with 7-9 strakes per side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Required registration of your boat varies from State to State so check your local rules.  In Ohio anything that floats needs to be registered.  In Georgia if it is 12' or shorter and won't have a motor then you don't need to register it.  I do admit that one other reason for a shorter boat is just for the challenge.  Shorter normally means slower unless you can get the boat to plane so doing the challenge in a smaller boat gives higher honors.  Look at the Puddle-Duck racers.  I would have loved to see one of those on this trip though I question windward ability and ability to go through chop having built one myself.

I would suggest, btw, that you repost this as a new thread to get some more comments.  I don't seem to be getting much sail advice from others on this thread and I don't know if anyone is still reading it.

Length of boat doesn't necessarily determine complexity and difficulty in the build.  A beamy 12-13' boat may be just as hard to build as a 16' Sharpie for instance.  One designer to look at for simple and quick to build boats is Michalak (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/michalak.htm).  His boats tend to be narrow sharpie style hulls that are easily driven and row well.  You may consider upscaling the sails on some.  We had two of his boats on the Florida 120.  I think the Mayfly 14' or 16' would fit your requirements well though I might consider upping the size of the sail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe tomorrow I will repost as a new thread.

I'm not real fond of the boxy style of many of Jim's boats.  If I were going to do a 14 or 16 footer, I would go ahead and do the CS 15 or 17 I believe.  The thing I like about JW's boats are they give you the rounded hull look with a fewer number of strakes.  Even the Walkabout has only 4 if I'm counting correctly.  I'm even fascinated at his new Pilgrim.  That sounds like the quintessential cruiser of the size we are discussing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welsford's boats are awfully pretty and not overly hard to build.  Be worth it to spend a little more time building one of his boats if you will be more happy with it IMHO.  Building any boat is an investment in time and resources but building a prettier boat of the same size isn't that big of an additional investment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed.  I've thought long and hard on this because it is such an investment of TIME and money.  And my sailing goals are changing too.  I doubt sailing vacations with my wife are realistic; so I'm thinking more in terms of daysailing and short term single-handed cruises.  I may sell the Mac and go for something in the 18' range as a weekender/family daysailer.  Got a grandson coming up too that I have to think about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry to hear your aspirations for cruising with your wife are not coming to fruition.  Is it her experiences on the Mac or just an aversion to sailing?  As for solo cruising and day sailing I do agree that a smaller boat than the Mac is more fun IMHO.  Something that is quick to rig and just the right size.  Really helps if it is pretty to look at and unique on the water.  I remember us sailing on Carter's Lake discussing exactly that.  BTW, Little Gem has gone through a lot of modifications since then and I have probably spent more total time on her than I would have building a Houdini or Pathfinder but I enjoyed the process. 

One bit of advice is to get Welsford's book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189136958X/ref=cm_cr_mts_prod_img) if you can find it.  It has several chapters on how to build one of his boats with good illustration, a chapter on aesthetics (something that is needed on the water), and another on equipping for small open boat cruising.  Finally, he describes all his designs and has an entertaining storing involving each from which you can learn a lot.  I have a copy  but am kinda loath to lend it out but will if you can't find one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it is an aversion to sailing nor to the Mac.  I'd say it is two-fold.  One, she is not really the out-doors type to start with.  Two, and I believe the main reason, is all of the trials that we have had sailing.  The stories are too numerous to mention but include my inexperience, getting sick while on a sailing vacation (not seasick - just sick), losing a trailer wheel, breaking a rib, ad nauseum....  In retrospect, I wish I had gained some proficiency before getting her involved; but the plan all along was for it to be a family thing and to get us on the water.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dale, how about we set up a cruise with a couple of my sailing club member, you and your wife, and me.  I might be able to get two Mac sailors there and the extra hands really do help.  One reason I like the BEER cruise was that it was a wonderful introduction to cruising for my wife and kids as well as a confidence builder for myself.  Just something about having other sailors nearby to lend a hand so that the family can just relax.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

Supporting Members

Supporting Members can create Clubs, photo Galleries, don't see ads and make messing-about.com possible! Become a Supporting Member - only $12 for the next year. Pay by PayPal or credit card.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.