Ropes and Horses

[Tim Diebert]

I am wondering if anyone knows how to attach a mainsheet block to a rope traveller or horse...and allow it to be adjustable? At this point I am thinking all rope as opposed to a 'hard' horse....it allows for more vertical tiller movement.

I have been using a system I originally got from Frank...

Right now playing around with a rope traveller. I tried it yesterday in high winds and liked it alot. The only downside seems to be that I cannot lift my tiller all the way up to near verticle. I can live with that because what I get in return is loosing that bundled nest of lines from one side to the other on the stern deck that is always getting caught in cleats and motor stuff.

The temp system I had hooked up yesterday also did not have the block at the traveler, so I was sheeting the main with zero mechanical advantage. My hands are still sore this morning If you ever want to get your grip to be more manly...try that.

[capt jake]

Might be hard to see in the picture, but it is worth a shot. My horse is adjustable and I have a 2:1 purchase on the main.

[Dave R1]

Tim, I have a rope horse with a block on it. The rope is 1/2" double braid and it just passes through the eye in the block. The mainsheet starts at a becket block on the end of the boom, leads down through the block on the horse, up through the becket block, forward to another block and finally down through a ratchet block on the cockpit floor near the cabin bulkhead.

The rope horse has a thimble in an eye splice at one end and attaches to the stern deck with a stainless U-bolt. The other end is tied to another U-bolt with a bowline. Initially, I left the horse long so I would have the freedom to adjust the horse. Once I found a point I liked. I cut off the excess and whipped the end.

[Tim Diebert]

Cap, is that an all hardware type item? So, if it is.... does that piece of hardware allow for athwart boat travel and can be locked in place, as well as hold a block? I looked through my old Harken catalogue and couldn't see anything like that....(not that it is necessarily Harken)

I noticed in the image that the port side end of the horse goes through a block and belays to a cleat....so it is adjustable in that way...I like that.

Dave. I like your main sheet layout and planned on something like that, but what I am wondering is how is your block for the main sheet...at the horse...is adjustable? Or maybe it isn't....?

Perhaps this kind of soft 'traveller' does not function as a 'hard' version does...where you can change the belay point for the mainsheet block?

What I had in mind was some kind of knot that worked on a friction basis that included the block.

You know, low tech, KISS principal, Fred and Barney....and cheap.

By the way Dave....can you point me to a web image of the ratchet block belay point unit of which you speak. What's the deal with those ratchet blocks anyway...I have never used one? They sound like fun.....but expensive.

[Dave R1]

Tim, I think I understand what you're referring to . You'd like to have the equivalent of a car and track for the mainsheet block. No, I don't have that sort of control over mine. I figure there's too many lines as it is but I could see a way to do it.

Suppose you put a small block on each of the U-bolts as I've got and maybe a jam cleat nearby on the stern deck. You could run small lines from the block to each side and through the blocks to the cleats. A sketch would be easier. Let me see what I can do when I get in to work.

I suppose you could come up with a sliding knot on the horse to limit the travel of the block. All the knots I know of require some tension on the lead to keep the knot tight. Rolling hitch, Prussik, Icicle hitch would work if you could find a way to keep that tension.

Perhaps a constrictor tied around the horse and its ends seized together at the knot might work. If it was tied from large enough line you might get a slider. I don't know how tight you'd need to make it. but you could experiment.

As to the the ratchet block, it is a Harken block sized for the 1/2" mainsheet. It wasn't cheap but it is certainly a nice addition. It is set up so that it runs toward you as you are pulling on the sheet. The sheave is made so it works almost like a jam cleat when it is locked. Takes a lot of the strain off the sheet when there's wind yet it will allow the sheet to run if you release the tension you're holding. It has a switch on the side so the ratchet function can be turned off. I'll look for a picture although I don't know if it looks like anything on the Harken site.

We have a ratcheting snatch block on the Y-boat at the cabin. That is nice because with the open-sided design, the sheet can be easily removed when desired. I look for one of those but the current offerings of snatch blocks are way too pricey even for me.

[Tim Diebert]

Yes, you have in mind what I have in mind. So far, to adjust my rig...as it is temporary....is I have used a slip knot in the mainsheet at the horse....then included another line to the slip knot. This line is wild, with this I can then cleat it off to the windward side... at the location I want the knot. It works, but without a mech advantage, not really easy to harden up when going to wind unless I pinch up. But that, as you say, is easy enough to sort.

Part of the reason I though I would like this layout, is making it possible to keep the main as flat (less twist) as possible. Using Jakes system with the open end, you could flatten it right down...slide the block all the way over to the lee side...and that would be about as lower an angle as you could get. With my loose footed main, a vang would not do it's usual job me thinks.

Another byproduct is windward sail shaping possibilities.

Just more strings to play around with.

By the time I get back from my ten day cruise next month, I should have sorted some of these issues or at least created something more suitable anyway. I enjoy playing around with this stuff.

I envision what you are trying to put across, so no need for the sketch, ....unless you are Maytagging today.

I had read about those ratcheting blocks in the Harken book, but wasn't sure if they actually had that 'braking' effect. Cool. So you are not able to actually cleat in the mainsheet and pretty well have to hold it always?...but the ratchet helps by taking some of the strain?

I had looked at a ratcheting snatch block somewhere the other day(on line), it was for 3/8" line I think and cost $250!

Reminds me of a 'thing' I bought for my road bike about 28 years ago. A Campagnolo Nuevo Record rear derailier. At the time it cost me nearly $100. It took me almost a year to actually mount it on the bike. It was so well made and so beautiful....I just kept it on my coffee table to look at and play with. If I bought one of those ratcheting snatchblocks.....it would be the same deal. They are beautiful pieces of gear.

[merrimange]

Been thinking about this aspect on my boat as I'm nearing this point of the construction. I want a tiller but like the control aspect of a traveler. Maybe this is not what your thinking, but I'm thinking something along these lines. It would require handling two sheets for the main but I don't think that would be too difficult. Sorry for the lack of autocad. I wonder what the pros and cons of this would be.

[Dave R1]

merrimange, I think two mainsheets would be a dangerous and tedious arrangement. In a a large gust you want to be able to release the main instantly to prevent the boat from going over. Two lines would require more time and more hands.

I think it would be better to have just the conventional single mainsheet. If you are using a tiller, use a horse--either rope or bronze rod--so that the tiller can operate below it.

I've got to run off to surgery now but I'll be back to finish my thought. If I can remember it that long.

[merrimange]

Tim - your right - It would require a bit too much thinking when you need to react quickly. I'm on a protected lake and have been sailing in larger keel boats, so I haven't thought through it entirely - thanks.

[Tim Diebert]

...oh, so you are a surgeon as well as a maytag man? 8)

Ms. Merrimange...that would be Dave that made that observation. And it is easy to tell us apart....here's how..... I don't expect to ever be dashing off to surgery Unless I am the one being worked on. :roll:

I second his statement though.

Even in Annie with 250# of ballast, you need to be PDQ with the main sheet if you don't want to get wet. Sometimes even rounding up isn't fast enough on those wicked puffs. Mind you, I cleat my mainsheet.

[Barry Pyeatt]

The Harken Hexarachet block is a great benefit on the boom. It does indeed hold the sheet fast and still allow you to release it with just a flip of the wrist. It will also release in a sudden change in pull so that you are aware of what is happening. It has about a 10:1 tension advantage over a single block.

On the Weekender the small hexarachet block (for up to 3/8" line) is sufficient. On a Vacationer I would go the next size up. It has about a 15:1 tension advantage over a single block.

These ratcheting blocks really save a lot of pulling and tired forearms, particularly in moderate to heavy winds and can really help a smaller person/child to maintain good control over the main. (Of course for all those much stronger/younger male types, it is only an aid.) :roll: :wink:

I've gone to rope stropped blocks on mine, but will still use a Hexarachet on the boom.

You can find them for about $30 if you look around.

Capt. Jakes horse arrangement works pretty darned well. (As long as you keep if from getting fouled on the raised outboard.) But then so does the arrangement that Frank has drawn out. Franks is easier to work with overall, but I think the seperate lines give a bit more control/shaping advantage on the main.

[Dave R1]

Tim, I'm not a surgeon unless you count operating on anesthesia machines surgery. I only had to run up there to exchange a gas analyzer. Ended up doing preventive maintenance on some anesthesia machines while I was there.

I only just now got to look at Jake's picture. My horse is like his except the horse terminates at both ends and doesn't have the leg that leads forward to a cleat.

Barry's got a good point regarding the horse fouling on the motor. That would definitely be a problem.

I have an idea for a horse made of bronze rod that would be high enough to clear the motor. I also considered using the Harken track and a car mounted on something high enough for clearance beneath. I could see it acting as a boom/mast crutch when trailering the boat, too.

Barry described the Hexaratchet block I have. I used 1/2" line for the mainsheet so the blocks are sized accordingly. I realize 1/2" line is plenty large but I decided to go for comfort in holding the line. It is a little heavy though and I sometimes have a difficult time keeping the boom out to the side in light air. fortunately light air doesn't occur that often around here.

[Barry Pyeatt]

The challenge as I see it with your tiller arrangements is the ability to raise the tiller handle when desired if you had it placed below a solid rod "Horse".

The obvious solution to that is to have the tiller handle hinge point in front of the "Horse" and fixed for back and forth movement below the fixed rod.

Does that work? Absolutely! I've seen a number of them done that way in my travels. Keeps the fabrication of the horse down to managable sizes and clean and neat as well as a lower profile to the entire system. If you chose to use a traveller track and car it can be mounted to clear the tiller handle and still be low profile. No conflict with the boom sheet or rigging at all.

An interesting traveller I saw in the Carib. last time down there was a unit made up of glavanized plumbing pipe that ran at least 6" outboard from either rail on the extreme aft end of the transom. It was curved to follow the shape of the deck. It had two elbows that brought the rod down from the top and served as stops for the ring/block on the rod. Then two short pipe nipples connected to two more elbows that brought it back to the hull where it was attached with two pipe flanges. Nothing was attached to the top of the deck at the transom except a couple of cleats. It was run over the tiller handle, (Handle hinged in front of the traveller rod), allowing about 6 inches of clearance between the deck and the traveller.

I wouln't have known it was 3/8" galvanized pipe if the owner hadn't told me, it was all cleaned up and black painted. A stainless steel ring attached to the lower block and simply slid back and forth across the full width of the transom. It also had a line to either side of the lower block which ran to a block outboard on either side of the traveller rod. These were reeved thru a block attached there and run forward to a jam cleat on ether side of the cockpit to control the position of the traveller slide ring when working to windward or working a broad reach in moderate to heavy winds. Simple and effective.

This was about a 27' wooden gaffer with a heavy wooden boom and it sailed like the wind. Extremely good mainsail control. It was a short gaff with a high aspect main and it didn't have a lot of twist to it. It was quite good to windward with a centerboard. Out ran most all of the fancier plastic rigs even though it couldn't point quite as high. Sailed 4 days on it in a lot of different conditions and loved it.

[Tim Diebert]

Barry's got a good point regarding the horse fouling on the motor. That would definitely be a problem.

It cannot be any worse than having double the lines laying over a greater area. I believe the horse trick would be way less clutter and foul less as well.

With my old system, it was a standard part of a gybe to unfoul the main sheet lines from the motor and cleats.

I have sailed only once with the new rope horse, but had one foul all day in steady heavy wind for 6 hours. With a solid traveller, it would be even less.

Barry....what a story...what a life you have bro. Amazing.

That sounds like quite the rig....though maybe not a good idea to hang anything extra over the side of a WE as the freeboard is minimal as it is.

Funny, after we started talking of the sail flattening aspect.....it got me wondering if anyone ever extended a traveller past the rail of a boat to get a firmer purchase on the boom. Wild stuff.

And the whole tilting tiller forward of the horse deal. What a great idea. What was the mechanism or joint used for this Barry?

Now I am thinking in this direction. I had also thought to use galvanized parts....or copper plumbers stuff. I had done quite of bit of plumbing lately and figured I could get all the material locally easy enough.

Great info all around. What fun.

[Barry Pyeatt]

It is an angled mortice and a tenon with a simple pin to pivot on. This allows the forward portion of the tiller handle to swing upwards out of the way or to facilitate standing. A swing/pivoting extension handle can lay ontop of this part of the handle out of the way but accessible if you want to sit on the side decks.

[Tim Diebert]

Nifty. Thanks for the drawing Barry. I figured it would be something along those lines...

[Barry Pyeatt]

Obviously not to scale in any respect but the closer the angle is to between 30-45 degrees, the stronger the tiller will be. This is really easy to do when laying up a laminated tiller, if the laminations are vertical.