I'm going to do it!--a Weekender: Your advice is invited.

[Jan Williamson]

I compared the doug fir ACX to the doug fir marine, and the marine won hands down. The aCX had soo many voids in it (at least from Medford Oregon area) that ther was no way I was going to use it. Lumberman's in Medford carried marine grade doug fir for $390 or so for the 11 sheets needed. Compared to $240 for the ACX. If I had it to do over, marine grade hands down. ( and I am a cheapy too)

[Frank Hagan]

Glassing ACX does little more than prevent checking of the plywood. One layer of 6oz cloth does little to add strength or impact resistance.

I don't think strength is the issue. The Weekender is a strong boat built with the original material specifications ... ACX ply. IMHO, the real issue is the presence of voids in the inner plies.

Sam Devlin, a boatbuilder from the Pacific Northwest, recounts how he figured out domestic marine grade douglas fir plywood was inferior: he walked out one morning to a line of Surf Scoters he was building, and noted that some had condensation in patches on the hull. Others had none. Investigating, he found that the ones built with okume or meranti marine ply, graded to the BS standards, had no patches of condensation. The marine grade douglas fir ply had voids in it. The problem with voids is that the water vapor in the air in the voids will condense, and then cause the plywood to rot from the inside out, no matter how thick an epoxy coating has been applied.

I'll never argue against spending more for the best plywood. But the "intended use" argument has to be made, and for the most part, you could build a Weekender with ACX and glass it, or build it with luan and not glass it, and have it last years. Keep water out of the boat while it sits on the trailer and you solve the number one rot problem. Even on unglassed boats.

It may be a false economy to use ACX and glass it over using luan underlayment and okume marine ply and not glass it. When I worked out the cost, not glassing the boat saved enough for the better wood to be bought. The one good thing about using AC plywood is that it often goes on sale, and you can wait to buy it.

For some of us, the challenge is to find a way to do it faster, less expensively, or with unique materials. I figured my Weekender would need to last 5 years, and then I'd move up to a bigger boat. I have my bigger boat now, and my Weekender is still in sound condition, 4 years later. Its hard for me to argue that I should have spent an additional $400 on marine grade plywood (I should have held out for a new trailer, but that's another story!)

[RussMartin]

If you factor in the cost savings of not glassing, the cost difference between the two panels is rahter minimal.

I have no argument with someone choosing to save money by going with ACX, however if you are counting the costs, count all of them before you make your decision.

Thanks, Ray--and Frank, too--for this excursion into an aspect of the cost that wasn't obvious to me.

What are some realistic figures for glassing? (And, for that figure, how much surface gets glassed?--I had figured only the hull, maybe even only up to the lower rubrail.)

Anyone else want to chime in on this?

[Frank Hagan]

I overstated it (especially if you are still going to epoxy-coat the marine plywood, which may not be necessary).

The Weekender calls for 20 yards of 6 ounce fiberglass cloth. RAKA has 50" wide, 6 ounce cloth for $5.25 a yard, so that's $105. I used about 3 gallons of epoxy just applying the glass and filling the weave; another $129 at RAKA's current price. So the savings could be in the $235 range rather than the $300 - $500 I cited.

(I actually used 5 gallons of epoxy on my boat, but in retrospect, some of that was coating wood that wasn't glassed; my recollection is that I was finished glassing the hull when I bought the second 3-gallon kit.)

On what to seal off against the elements, whether you use fiberglass or not, remember that any place exposed to the weather should be sealed somehow. That would be the hull, the deck, the cockpit and inside the bottom of the lazarette (water collects there) and inside the cockpit lockers under the aft portions of the seats. The question is that for sealing okume or meranti, is epoxy even needed? Or could paint be used?

[Frank Hagan]

As a builder for hire I would never consent to build a boat for sale out of glassed ACX' date=' and I am not sure you would find many builders willing either.[/quote']

Gosh, and here I was ready to commission you to build an ACX skiff and paint it bright orange ... :shock: :wink:

[Guest]

"As a builder for hire I would never consent to build a boat for sale out of glassed ACX, and I am not sure you would find many builders willing either."

"Sooo, Any leads on a set of plans I can get to build a small 9-10 foot

rowing dinghy quick and cheap? I* don't right care how it looks, Wood stringers and ACX ply would work out fine. Won't worry much about sealing with epoxy neither. Light weight would be a plus, Last me a few months and I will be happy if I can build it vcheap enough."

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2696

HUM, Capt. FLIP FLOP Ray, the pickey builder. :wink: Must be the sign of a wealthy boat builder. Few of you around these days. If its good enough for me, then its good enough for another guy. And just think you are a fixin to throw together an UGLY DUCKLING, :wink:

Frank show me your money!!!!!!!!!!

[Frank Hagan]

If I built with LUan and glassed it...

I suspect the material cost would come in around 150.00 and labor cost would be close to that 40-60 man hrs again.

Which way makes the most sense?

Which way makes the most sense if you are debating between luan and glass or Okoume encapsulated?

You are right, when you include your labor it becomes a completely different story. I used re-sawn construction grade 2 x 12s for my keel, and then spent hours planing the "furry" splinters off them from the bandsaw. Calculating my labor in that equation and I could have bought 1 x 12 clear doug fir to begin with. But I didn't count my labor in the cost of the boat at all, and it was a "labor of love" so to speak. I don't consider any of the time spent as "wasted", although there are things I wouldn't do now that I did then.

[Guest]

I attempted, rather lame I guess, to speak with tooooooongue in cheek with no ill will intended. Actually you will find that its not all that bad for certain circumstance, as long as the client understand it. Even in my last project, I did the bare minimum, as it was intended for a particular purpose, to beat the heck out of it. Remember that many of the good or better plywoods will not take the abuse that the ACX or just plane pine will, even though I don't like it. But thats why trucks come with vinyl flooring and plastic seats. Regards.

[Guest]

Do a boil test on that luan or put a piece it in your dishwasher tommorrow. Thats incredible service.

[Barry Pyeatt]

My goodness, anyone dropping in on this thread would get the opinion that the only way to build a Weekender is with epoxy and BS1088 Okume or equivalent, then epoxy the heck out of the plywood.

If you want to protect plywood and have it last, regardless of wether or not it is Marine Ply, glass it and use vinylester resin. It is waterproof and it doesn't matter if it prevents checking. It is less apt to have problems than epoxy or a lot less potential for problems than polyester in the long run.

I've seen and worked on/repaired a lot of boats with all three that have been well maintained that are 15 years old and older. But the vinylester/glass has required less maintenance on the average. In other places than here in the Pacific Northwest, individual builder/owners may have different experiences. And that is always fun for a debate about what to use and how to do it.

I've encapsulated a lot of plywood in the last 20 years, most of it with a layer of glass or more. Some with epoxy, some with polyester, some with vinylester. In order of expense and labor, most to least. Epoxy, Vinylester, Polyester. In order of required maintence and ease of maintence for wood/glass small boats. Vinylester, Polyester, Epoxy.

UV resistance, Vinylester, Polyester period. Epoxy has no UV protection.

Ease of finishing, debatable and with cause. Each has its drawbacks, each has some advantages. Epoxy has the least compatability with other finishes.

Ability to accept finishes. Again debateable and with cause. Good latex enamel will hold up extremely well on a trailerable boat that doesn't live in the water. And they will handle being in the water for longer than a couple weeks at a time without a problem if applied and maintained well.

For a tougher finish, Urethanes. Single part Polyurethane porch, deck, floor will hold up extremely well and is easy to apply and cost effective. Alkyd enamels are still enamel. The finish is on the surface, ding it and the gloss is gone and it looks beat up. Urethanes have the finish all the way thru, they can be buffed up. All can be touched up and repaired easily. Enamels take longer to cure and set up. To be completely hard to the touch takes some time. Urethanes don't, neither do most automotive finishes, but they don't take the abuse that either urethanes or enamels do.

Obviously, a bit more invested in quality materials to build the boat will pay off in longer life if care is taken in building. Finishes are subjective and egos get involved quickly and take over. Some people wouldn't do anything but gel coat over polyester, but it is difficult to do well and I don't think it is going to last any longer if as long as a good paint. Cheap paint is just that cheap. It is like thowing your money away if you want it to last a good long time. Boat paints are at the other extreme, expensive and they still don't last all that long. Also difficult to repair and require a lot of maintence to keep them looking good.

These are great boats, different strokes for different folks. A boat built in Nebraska doesn't require the same materials or finish work as one that is going to live in salt water in Maine or Florida, Hawaii or the Pacific Northwest. And a different set of requirements entirely for some of the other parts of the world.

So... it is still builders choice, mostly subject to local availability. And climate. Boats that go thru off season freeze cycles are going to have more maintence required than one in a more moderate climate. Same with boats in the tropics or southern climates. Different considerations for what will work the best.

But this sure is fun discussing it and getting all the varied opinions and input.

Bottom line, the boats that are not finished quite as pretty are probably going to get used more and enjoyed more than those that are perfection.

The not so pretty boats builders probably won't mind the rub or scrape or ding that occurs. And will probably sand it down and slap a coat of paint on it and go sailing. That is what makes this great.

Nothing will beat having at least quartersawn material for the stem/keel. Clear if possible, but tight knot next. No tendency to warp or cup, no separating over the seasons with freeze/thaw cycles. If you glass it, you will probably have rot under the glass as it gets hairline cracked and moisture gets under it. The chance of catching it early is poor. If it is encapsulated in epoxy and it cracks, moisture gets into the wood and it begins to rot. Again the chance of catching it early is poor. So...don't glass it. Just paint it and check it often.

[RussMartin]

Once again, I have to take time to thank all of you who respond, continue to respond, and even debate various merits for my edification.

I'm not sure I've ever encountered such a congenially opinionated group of individualists (and I intend that in the most positive connotation).

Over the next three days, I'm going to begin sorting this wealth of information, probably into some sort of spreadsheet so I can begin to make some of the early irrevocable choices and begin sneaking up on some that will need to be made along the way.

I think I've managed to form some preconditions:

1. I want to have fun doing this (and, so far, even this preliminary exploration is quite fun!).

2. I want to have fun sailing the result (hopefully no later than this time in 2005).

3. The boat is going to be a dunker--drysailed; further, during the really inclement parts of the Nebraska season (actually only about mid-November to mid-March--call it four months) the boat will be garaged.

4. My labor isn't a factor in this project. I'm an electronics engineer and work on contract, either on a negotiable fixed-price bid basis or straight hourly at $75 (except for clients on the east or west coasts; then the price goes up . . . ). What I'm not is a professional woodworker and certainly not a boat builder. I'm handy with tools and get good results on household stuff like bookcases, small furniture, doghouses, and the like.

5. I think I'd like to keep my budget at around $2500. This does not include additional tools (I don't think I'll need any) but does include expendable supplies (e.g., sandpaper, saw blades, etc.).

----------------

I think I understand "encapsulation" as it has been used in this topic line, but would somebody venture to give me a clear-cut definition? Is this a generic term (which is how it seems to me), whether the encapsulating material be glass (on one end) or paint (on the other)? The underlying idea being to protect the wood? Are hybrid options reasonable (glass this, epoxy that, paint something else?).

[Guest]

Russ, I think we walk a fine line when building 1. our first boat, 2. building to learn, and 3. building luzuaries with slush funds filtered off from our daily budgets. :wink: We also walk a fine line when building for others, which also ended up being analized here. But the first thing to consider in building our first vessel, especially in a small boat, forgo the idea of going to the extremes, both in expense and time spent on each and every detail. Yes, most here have gone ot extremes in some of their projects, obth in finish work and rigging. But in my opinionated opinion, I do not think the original intent on the weekender was to make it as your last boat, but a boat built with basic skills, tools, and local and readily avaliable woods. Some have taken it to the max, as the gallery shows.

So relax, read all the weak opinons, and make your own choices, but have fun and learn, and don't think this is your last one. Its only just begun for most here. So get on the water, with what you feel comfortable with, both in materials, and finish work, which comes sometimes with the types of materials you do use on this project.

Remember, as one of our fellow resident members spoke just a few days ago, if you build it, you darn sure can fix anything that may pop up, or out.

[mustangermatt]

Something else to consider in choosing fir is that it has three plys in 1/4" compared to five in the okuome. On my coresound that has required a bunch of extra framing due to the lack of rigidity in the direction of the single ply. Especially on deck and seat areas that are required to bear the full weight of an adult.

My primary reason for choosing doug fir marine ply was that it was the only way I could be sure I was using a truly renewable and managed resource as apposed to the imported woods that may or may not be harvested in a responsible manner. And its cool to know my boat is built of entirely local species too, not that I am proud of the northwests timber traditions or anything :-)

[RussMartin]

ENCAPSULATION

You will note that I have not mentioned epoxy encapsulation; i.e., coating both sides of everything with several coats of epoxy resin. It has no advantages and is a waste of money and time that adds useless weight. It won't turn lauan underlayment into marine plywood, though it will make it cost nearly as much. It does not keep the water out of the wood boat that lives in the water and a dry sailed boat doesn't need it.

I ran across this at:

http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/epoxy.html

[Frank Hagan]

"Encapsulation" in boat building usually refers to a thick coating of epoxy over all sides and edges of the plywood. This is three to five coats of epoxy. The criticism is that it doesn't protect against moisture forming in the voids in the wood, and that epoxy isn't waterproof anyway.

And that's true, epoxy is not waterproof. It becomes more waterproof as you coat the wood more and more, and I think for our purposes, its "waterproof enough" with 3 - 5 coats. As Barry noted, Vinylester is better in terms of water resistance, UV resistance and heat resistance. Which is why Kern Hendricks, of System 3 Resins (a main purveyor of epoxy) built his airplane with vinylester.

But most of these are distinctions without a difference in a day sailer that lives on the trailer most of the time. The one advantage of Ray's idea of using meranti or okume plywood is that you don't have to glass the boat, just seal it with a couple of coats of epoxy (or vinylester, if you prefer) and then paint it. Saves a few bucks, and is quality construction. I think the time savings would be considerable ... Capt Jake would have launched two years earlier without all that sanding of the epoxy!

Disadvantage for those of us in places where you can't get marine ply is that the shipping costs can exceed the cost of the plywood. $80 worth of fiberglass cloth, ACX ply and vinylester may be cheaper when the cost of shipping is included.

I don't know anyone who has built a Weekender without glassing it. I think Mike Stevenson said one time that they had a lot of boats built without glassing among the smaller boats ... MiniCup, etc. But not too many of the larger boats.

If the luan underlayment was available in more thicknesses, and if you could substitute it for ACX for the hull, bottom, deck and cabin top, you might be able to build with it at the same price as the ACX and just coat it with resin. Less sanding too, I would think.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Capt. Jake and a lot of others that are working/have worked with mulitiple layers of epoxy resin to build up after glassing and then fair the surface for painting could save/have saved an incredible amount of time and frustration as well as sanding equipment if they practiced with a simple cabinet scraper for a while before getting into building up with epoxy.

Some have tried peel ply or a substitute to come up with a smooth surface after glassing. Yes it is smooth but it still will reflect what ever is going on below it. If the ply surface isn't reasonably fair and smooth before glassing then it won't be much better after glassing. Prep work is just that, prep work. All the time spent getting ready before you apply glass is well worth it when the glassing is done. Same with painting, the better the prep work, the easier the painting job and better it will come out. However, the worst thing you can do is sand plywood to any extent before finishing it. It becomes a washboard very quickly.

But this was to be about the use of cabinet scrapers to work the surface of epoxy before painting. Lee Valley sells a number of different cabinet scrapers and they are easy to use and not all that expensive. Once you learn to use one, you will hardly ever go back to sandpaper. It takes all the fuzzies off in one sweep, with a little deft touch and some practice, it will even out the washboard surface that occurs on softwood plywood before glassing. I can't recommend enough that anyone that is serious about doing good finish work, not necessarily fine furniture type finishes but just good work that looks alright from about 6-10 feet away, learn to use and sharpen a couple different cabinet scrapers. They will prove to be invaluable to you. On fairing out a hull they will remove small amonts evenly in any areas that you want to be fair and smooth.

Most surfaces that have had a good working over with a scraper are ready for a finish with no further work. For evening/fairing out epoxy they can't be equaled. They will cut very shallow or take a gouge out of things, so practice and learning how to control it is a good exercise.

I consider myself extremely fortunate in that I had a father that understood them and also worked building furniture and boats during WWII along with my uncle who was a master cabinetmaker. I learned early on that you could do more with a scraper in a few minutes than with sanding for hours and have better results. Sharpening a scraper doesn't cost anything and only takes a couple minutes. Imagine not needing to purchase all that sandpaper and extra filler.

I'd rather be sailing than sanding anyday.

[RussMartin]

Well, I've reached a few decisions. One is on the wood.

Today I drove over to Millard Lumber and looked at "Superply" by Roseburg Forest Products. Compared to the the garden-variety ACX at the chain home-improvement stores, the difference is fairly loud.

If examination of the edges is a good place to start, then the Superply does indeed have fewer and smaller voids, as stated. And both A and C sides are much smoother than the home-store stuff.

I appreciate all of the thought that has gone into the discussion of merits of various woods and treatments, but my decision to go with the Superply is based on:

This is my first project of this type, so it's something for me to learn on (which includes "make mistakes on"). I'd rather do that with less expensive lumber. If I do get hooked and go on to a second project as soon as some of you suggest might happen, then I'll rethink the wood issue.

In passing, I'd like to note that I was suprised and delighted by the huge and varied stock at this locally-owned outfit. I looked at examples of the other lumber I'll need, and the difference in quality is significant!

[Frank Hagan]

Interesting product! Tech sheet is at:

http://www.rfpco.com/fact_sheets/SuperPly.htm

Face veneer is an imported hardwood such as "Guatambu" or okume, rear face is a domestic softwood such as fir. It meets "exterior grade" which is, I think, a better standard than the ACX "Exposure 1" grade. It passes the boil test.

I think this would be a good alterative to ACX for people wanting an easier to finish product, but wouldn't replace BS1088. I suspect there are interior voids, but for a day sailer that is less of a consideration.

[RussMartin]

I suspect there are interior voids

Yes, Frank, I suspect so; however, as I mentioned, I examined the edges of the product in several thicknesses and it appears that their claim of "fewer and smaller" voids is true. The difference, to my eye, was fairly spectacular.

Some additional information on it in .pdf format:

http://www.rfpco.com/pdfs/superply_sales.pdf

How much does it cost for 1/4 ply pannel?

Ray, my prices here (excluding sales tax) for the Superply (ACX prices in parentheses) 4x8 panels are:

1/2" -- $38.94 ($32.99)

3/8" -- $32.45 ($24.99)

1/4" -- $29.15 ($24.89)

Overall, this is about 21 percent more than the home-improvement chain stores' pricing for the ACX that I looked at--and about 1/3 or less of what any marine panels would cost me in this marketplace.

Since the retailer orders from Roseburg often and in large quantities, they have offered to get prices for me on AA and AB panels, too.

[Frank Hagan]

Its well worth the price difference over what is normally sold as "ACX Exterior" in the home centers. They switched to "Exposure 1" grade a long time ago without much fanfare. "Exposure 1" isn't the same as the old "exterior" grades.

The Superply panels are actually "Exterior" grade, meeting PS 1-95, which meets the boil test, etc.