Floatation foam

[Jan Williamson]

There is a subject on the bow gusset thread about foam. I thought I'd ask my next question on a new thread so others might benefit. Barry has given us a wealth of information about blue foam. My question is has anyone installed foam in the area behind the lazarette below the steering set-up? Maybe securing with some kind of strapping to keep it on the floor. I am looking for all sources of floatation. My husband and I are pretty heavy between the two of us so I thought foam in the back would help.

[Barnacle Jim]

Good morning,

Jan, you're right about this topic deserving its own posting. Others may want to read about this very subject later, and maybe having a new assigned topic will make it easier to find.

For the benefit of other readers, here is a brief summary along with some points Barry Pyeatt made

[Barry Pyeatt]

Well, my goodness. Did I really say all those things? :oops:

I need to clarify a couple points that I maybe didn't make clear enough.

I don't plan on using it for cushions. It is too rigid. I plan on using a closed cell upholstery foam. It is quite firm, but not rigid. It doesn't soak up water when splashed or swamped. But it is heavier than the blue or pink foam. It is commonly used for cushions in RV's and boats, but I can't think of the commercial name for it right now.

We used a lot of the blue foam in our boats. It cuts to shape easily and can be formed with ordinary woodworking tools. A rasp/surform shaper will allow you to make small changes. It is messy to work with when cutting. If you plan on sanding it, (ie: belt sander, etc), wear a dust mask. You don't need to be inhaling the fine particles. :cry:

It could be used as flotation in open spaces that couldn't be sealed off. On a Weekender, PC or Vacationeer or other of these boats it can be put behind the seat backs, cut to fit and stacked in place. It could also be placed in the lower part of the Lazerette and just velcro strapped down.

I could be cut to fit under the deck in the forepeak and side decks along the inside of the cabin. It can be cut to roughly 2X2 panels and line the hull sides in the cabin. Or cut to fit between the rafters on the cabin ceiling. It can also be cut to fit the cabin sole and held in place with velcro strips and have a piece of carpet laid over it. For storage it can all be popped out and wrapped up for the off season.

It can be cut to fit under the seat surfaces as flotation or the underside of almost any surface that if fixed in place. It could be laminated between two pieces of 1/4" ply to make a seat that had positive flotation properties.

It can be tight fitted to line a well with a top also fitted with foam to make a cooler. I plan on doing just that below one part of the seats on the Weekender with a lift top. I will cover the interior surfaces with vinyl shower wall and caulk the seams with silicone to make up a cooler.

It does offer some comfort in cold areas as it insulates well. It also cuts down on noise. I don't remember the "R" factors but they aren't important for boat use anyway.

It can also be filled and painted with latex paints. So a formed edge is possible and it can make a decoratative edge.

We laminated it between plywood using panel adhesive or contact cement and had excellent result for use as a building panel. We would use these for space dividers, bulkheads, hatch covers, etc. They would end up fairly thick, typically 1 1/4" or a little thicker. We used veneered door skins and had nice finished panels that could be stained and finished with Varathane in our case, either satin or high gloss. We also used high pressure laminates (countertop material) and had excellent results.

We had the advantage of using a vacuum press that could accommodate some pretty large sizes, but it can be done using panel adhesive and a "J" roller as used for laminate work.

The 1" panels we used to line hull sides or ceiling panels were cut to manageable sizes that fit the area and looked to be architecturally interesting. They were covered on one side and the edges with Upholstery fabric and Scotchguarded. This was applied with 3-M spray adhesive or contact cement. it was wrapped around the edges of the panels so it left a nice edge. A strip of velcro would be cemented to the edges of the panel and one down the center so generally the panels would be held in place with three strips. They wind up being very secure but can be removed quite easily. In some cases we would finish them off with a Vinyl "Tee" moulding between strips for accent and to cover the edges. But they were usually just stuck in place and butted together. With care and some attention to detail, you can make a very attractive space.

We also used some of them with door skins veneered to the surface and finished with stain and Varathane as panels instead of upholstery. These were often used on the ceilings and occasionally on hull sides for a "richer" look. Functionally they worked out the same.

[Jan Williamson]

Jim, thank you for taking the time to post Barry's "quotes." I will have to learn to do that.

Barry you're awesome

[tomstock]

My husband and I are pretty heavy between the two of us so I thought foam in the back would help.

Dont forget the foam only helps when you try to sink the boat

Tom

[Barry Pyeatt]

Yes...Tom's point should be well taken. All the foam in the world is only weight inside a hull unless the hull is full of water as well.

The foam won't make it any different than an empty hull until it is swamped.

These are displacement hulls, they float because they displace a given amount of water for their weight. So...adding any form of flotation inside the hull will not make it more stable or float any higher in the water.

If you are trying to offset weight in the hull you would have to add outriggers to hold it up. :roll:

Even a Cast Iron bathtub will float if you seal up the holes in it. That has been demonstrated many times here in the Northwest in the Annual Bathtub Race. But fill it with water and it is dead weight. :wink:

[Jan Williamson]

Thank you Barry for all your good information. I went up to Medford yesterday and bought a sheet of 2" blue foam.($13.87) They had all the thicknesses too from 1/2 to 12. I want to fill behind the transom with the maximun I can get away with before I close up the other side. I am assuming I can fit foam up to just below the stearing shaft. I have the turnbuckle installed on the underside of the deck so there is nothing below the stearing shaft. It would be nice to cut each piece the shape and size of the space between the lazarette and the transom. install them from the open hull side and secure them down with velcro straps. I have a top hatch, and didn't plan on a lazarette hatch But.... :roll: I wonder if I should consider a drain plug out the back since I won't be able to tell if there is water in the transom area with the foam there. I don't know how it would get there but if it did ?? :roll: Also in the winter months if I need to take the foam out for circulation, it would be through the top hatch, maybe the lazerette hatch is needed and smaller pieces of foam cut.

[Guest John R]

Something in your first note brings a question.

Do you think that adding this foam inside the boat will make it float better during normal use?

The addition of floatation is strictly for emergency situations where you have swamped the boat either by being dumped on by a large wave or by a knock-down or capsize. The additional floatation then comes into play. By reducing the volume of water in the boat when swamped, you are trying to get the boat to float so that no additional water spills over the sides into the boat while you are trying to bail.

One post on one of these boards was from a sailor that had a knock-down, filled the boat to above the sides. The wood has some positive buoyancy but did not compensate for the added equipment like a motor or other stuff that would normally sink.

Net results was that the sailor was towed in to a beach before he could bail out the boat.

Having positive floatation added (blue foam) would have prevented the seat back area from filling with water and allowed for bailing out in the middle of the lake. Also under the laz can help. Think about where and how much floatation you use so that if you get swamped the boat will sit in the water with the sides showing some freeboard and allow you to bail.

Too much floatation in one spot or another may still leave you with the sides or bow still taking on water as you need to bail.

For me, I've been saving these squarish milk jugs that will go behind the seat backs and most likely in the bow peak. Then some Blue foam under the decks in the cabin with velcro.

Again think about what the boat will be doing when you need this floatation and would it help in righting a capsized boat or hinder?

Will it, when back upright be actually floating? Stuck to the ceiling would put it in the air when upright but might aid in getting it back up after a knockdown.

Just some thoughts

[Bob Taylor]

Here are a couple of pics of the floatation I installed in Sultana:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/pe04ac4a478b3b35634734635677ff4a8/fdcd823e.jpg.orig.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/pc9cc5b0cddfe65f83114fb44d864b020/fdcd8244.jpg.orig.jpg

Might not work since its Imagestation. I'll see if I have them on Terry's site......Yep, they're there on the Vacationer picture page.

[Barry Pyeatt]

One of the cold forming techniques involves laying up foam sheets in strips or sheets to conform to the inner layer and then laying up an outer layer of plywood to form a ply/foam sandwich. As long as the voids are filled it is a very sound structural component on hulls. It adds insulation as well as additional strength to the hull in addition to the flotation.

I know of several fero-cement boats that used foam sheets as a component of the hull construction. Also a couple of river drift fishing dorys that were laid up with foam as a sandwich between 1/4" ply for the sides and between 1/2" ply as a bottom. They are heavier than the standard construction, but they seem to perform a little better and when swamped they float with the rails significantly above the water, making bailing them out a lot easier.

With the formability of the foam, it would be possible to add additional width to the rear quarters of the hull to affect stability without adding significant weight. Fair it in and glass over it and paint it. :idea:

I think it would be applicable to a Red/Green duct tape method of trying out new ideas as well. Who knows what interesting concepts could be tried. A tri-hull with the Weekender as the center and foam mini-hulls as outriggers. Keep it stable enough for a dance floor. :roll: Additional deck space for camping and cook outs. Solve the lack of space for a Port-a-potty by placing an appropriately designed sani-kan on one of the outriggers with a matching one on the other for additional storage.

[Guest Anonymous]

Barry, I think you've been swamped a few too many times

I think the stupid idea I had about offsetting weight in the boat has switched on a brainstorm. Why not just add some straps to the outside of the boat and my husband and I can ride there. Fat floats!!!!

[Jan Williamson]

Now if I could have only been looged off when I asked the question about weight offset Nobody would have known :oops:

[Barnacle Jim]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for mentioning Sultana! Unfortunately, the site you posted would not allow me to see the photographs. I believe you mentioned another site with pictures of the boat, but I cannot find that site. :oops: Could you give us another address? I am in the duldrums without wind, but not without hope.