Sailing hard out!

[buck]

I watched the Stevenson's video for the first time at Wayne's place (see other post) which was good, but what struck me most was how hard out they sailed them. Now I'm no timid sailor as you guys know, but the couple at the start of the video have that boat barrelling along heeled right over, water brushing the top rubrail, happily balanced like theres no tomorrow!

Am I sailing it too flat? Would I get better windward performance heeled right over (this seems more than 15 degrees) and what the risk of capsize at this point? This is the limit I take mine when I'm all stacked out on the windward side, not what I have it at for cruising. What do other people do?

People have commented how fast my boat was in certain points of the wind but one things for sure the couple at the front of video would leave me for dead and have it screaming along, in away I have yet to attain. is the video fast or have I something to learn here?

[Barry Pyeatt]

My only real sailing experience in a Weekender was off the Island of Maui. It was blowing pretty hard and there were 2-3 foot waves. We were clipping right along with the rail at and in the water too. I didn't feel in the least uncomfortable. Although I had a lot more fun once we got around the point and out of the heavier seas. I think it is important to consider that the dory type hull design has been well proven in heavy weather.

Glad you could get together with some other builders. That is always a great opportunity to share viewpoints and compare building techniques.

[Russ Sylvester]

I've always noticed that the boat seems to point the best when at the very least the lower rubrail is wet and the wind isn't being pinched. Getting the upper rubrail wet isn't out of the ordinary at all. In fact, I routinely will ship a little water over the top rail from waves.

The boat has a point where the hull side is parallel to the water surface that seems to be the breaking point. I say seems to be as I 've never gone past this point. You'll know you're there when you're rudder no longer works, the water is up to the leeward cabin window and you lose speed dramatically since you're sail will be getting close to being flat to the water. I figure any further and you better get ready to go for a swim.

[Bob Taylor]

The few times I've dipped the rails under I've noticed that my Vacationer also slows down a bit, fun to do though!!!

[T. Nelson Surbrook]

I often sail "on the edge" this is just for fun. If I was racing, flatter is better in the weekenders. Ray is right on in his assesment of the hull design.

[Barry Pyeatt]

We looked at a number of various hullforms in tank studies to see what effect various chine designs had on perfomance and the ability to turn effectively and still track straight ahead when you wanted them to. When you get this type of hull heeled over to the point that the rail is in the water, the hull side trys to become a planing surface and the chine is no longer effective. At that point, only the front portion of the keel is effective as well and the rudder begins to try to plane. For the keel/chine relationship to work to its best advantage and control, you are better off keeping it at about 15 degrees max. But it is fun and the perception of speed is increased dramatically.

[Mike Pennington]

And you guys think I am nuts

I have contemplated at what point the Vacationer would go over. I have had the lower rub rail in the water, the mainsail reefed and not at different times. I have to admit I am a bit timmed though, I don't want to go swimming in these waters. But the question is still there, just how self righting are these boats? :wink:

I get nervous in one foot swells not to mention a foot and a half. Of coarse I am speaking lakes not coastal, so for the wind to produce a one foot swell over a relative short distance means the wind is definately blowing. That means, I am headed for the lee of an island or cove.

I have also heard following waves are something to watch out for with the Vacationer or Weekender. How about that Coastal Skippers, Opinions please? Just how rough and tough are our boats?

Dare I go beyond the Spit at Homer? Will I need a survival suit to go all the way to Soldovia? :roll: These names are places I have sailed before on the south central coast of Alaska. I have been wondering just how salty the Vacarioner is? So far I am just taking baby steps, but we'll see.

[TexasPhil]

I did a little experiment last year with the Skipjack M&M. (Yes, I realize that it is not a weekender, but the principal is still valid)

The experiment consisited of taking the boat, without sail, and tipping her to the side to see how far it would go before we lost positive righting.

At about 80 degrees, as determined by my calibrated eye, water started pouring into the cockpit. It still had possitive righting moment, but I figured that as water poured into the boat, the righting moment would dimminish.

My conclusion is that the Skipjack is not at risk of capsizing, as long as I keep the water out.

I realize that a loaded boat is different than an empty one, but most of the load is movable and reactive. I figure as long as the deck is not wet, we are OK, but that is way beyond the comfort zone, 30 or 40 degrees is pushing it.

But it sure boosted my confidence.

It would be nice if someone would conduct a similar experiment on the weekender.

Phil

[Barry Pyeatt]

MIke,

The dory type hullform is a proven design in open seas. It is the addition of a lot of power above the water that makes it interesting in open water with long runs for waves to form. These are pretty stable platforms all things considered. In following seas the boat may want to jibe rather quickly on you and the rudder may stall thereby loosing effectiveness.

I think it is important for everyone to think about rudder effectiveness. It only works when there is sufficient water flow over its surface. It isn't like a power boat with either an outboard which steers the boat or an inboard which creates waterflow across the rudder. Not enough forward or rearward movement and the rudder ceases to do anything. Doesn't matter whether it is a tiller or wheel for steering.

It is also imortant to realize that there is a guiding rail on the bottom of the boat in the full length keel. It keeps the boat moving straight ahead if there is some inertia moving it. In a following sea, the effective inertia is reduced thereby reducing the effectivness of the steering.

The reason the gills help isn't so much the fact that there is only a small portion of the rudder box that is actually in the water, but rather that the flow of water along the keel and across the rudder is interrupted by turbulance off the back edge of the keel That is enough to disrupt the flow across the rudder causing it to be less effective and stall. The foil shape of the rudder increases its effectiveness provided it has a smooth flow of water reaching the forward edge. The gills help eliminate the turbulance and create a smooth flow of water across the rudder.

If you try to turn too far with the rudder, the rudder stalls just like a wing does with too steep an angle of attack and not enough forward movement. So at about 30 degrees either side of neutral, it begins to quit working.

Can you sail safely in open seas. Yes, but realize these are not deep water cruising boats. They are unballasted, not completley self-righting, they will come up on their sides with the weight of the water on the sail preventing them from righting themselves. A weekender can be righted rather easily and will float at about rail height. It can then be bailed out.

A vactioneer will take a lot more to blow it over, and consequently also be more difficult to bring back upright, but again it should float about at rail level. Flotation added above that point won't accomplish much of anything as far as keeping it higher in the water, but will help keep it higher and more stable when it has been swamped.

Can you take it out beyond the breakwater, yes and no. Know your boat first and how it acts and reacts to you and your style of handling. Know how to do man overboard drills with everyone that goes out with you.

When the water temp is 50 degrees that is a good indicator that a 50 year old man can probably swim 50 yards and stay afloat for 50 min before hypothermia begins to take effect. We get a lot of hypothermia cases along the west coast because the water temps don't get much above 50-54 degrees.

Another reason for me to go back to Kauai. Or the Carib. :wink:

[Knut]

Barry wrote:

"A weekender can be righted rather easily and will float at about rail height. It can then be bailed out."

This is all correct, but I think it is important to be aware that the bailing out cannot be done while floating (unless some very special measures are used, like an inflatable air-bag or similar). If you capsize it is very unlikely that the water is flat and only small waves will prevent successful bailing. The boat needs to be beached and then it is quite easy to bail with a suitable bucket.

I don't know if I should say I am lucky or unlucky to know this from personal experience?? :?

[Stuart Benbow]

Hey Knut,

I'd say you're lucky that you found out the hard way and were able to recover from it without any problems. Good to have a tow every now and then, huh?

As to bailing ... a little bit of floatation and a wrap around cockpit coaming goes a long way towards keeping the water out while you bail ... I'd hope so anyway. I'm sure I'll find out later this summer, most likely also from personal experience.

[Knut]

Hi Stuart,

my splash coamings are almost wrap-around. At least they cover pretty well the lowest area and tapers out to the rear, where the deck is coming higher. Actually, the water line swamped, pretty much followed the coaming as shown on the picture:

http://groups.msn.com/WeekenderBoatbuilding/knutsweekenderfreeatlast.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1315

You are probably right that with a good volume of floatation the bailing could have been possible. However, with the waves we had at the time I still doubt it.

The gentleman who towed us to the sandbar had the idea that full power tow would send some of the water over the transom and give us the necessary freeboard to do bailing. Don't even think about it. There is no chance to achieve anything this way.

With a Weekender may be all users should make a training swamp at some stage??? It sure was educational for me, weight-keel sailor, but for your sailing comfort I hope you do not need this sort of education.

Happy sailing!!