Arlen

I will probably compromise, but I don't think I'll finish it off "exactly" as is. But you're right, as much as I can leave alone, the better. Spent a little more time aboard, and it seems I dismissed JTam's suggestion too quickly. The more I think about it, it's really the only reasonable compromise given where I'm at in the building process. It allows one foot some room anyway, and a guest will most likely sit back to cabin with legs on the opposing seat, so ... on the rare occassion I consider more than that aboard, they'll have to suffer. Concerning my original questions .... 1) Can I get a good epoxy bond where 5200 once was? 2) Are patches in epoxy / glass over new screwheads using glass cloth over the heads and fared to the existing hull going to hold long term, or should they be avoided? Edited to acknowledge I was probably getting ahead of myself and making too much work for myself. I'll just have to chalk the compromises in room up as a lesson learned. The closer I looked, the more I'd have to redo ... and I don't really want to go there.

Hi JTam, thanks for the response. Well, sitting there this morning, I considered exactly as you suggest ... it would certainly be easier. I think I may have run across pictures of your boat, or someone else who did the same. The problem as I see it is the helmsman (me) will likely be seated mid-cockpit due to size and weight, with any crew forward of that. My potential crew includes a couple of family members that make me look scrawny as well. Regardless of what I do, I suspect if a 3rd person is ever along, they'll be relegated to being seated in the companionway with their feet in the cockpit. There's just not enough room for a couple big folks to get situated without opening the cockpit up, and I just can't help but feel all would be far more comfortable w/ the entire cockpit open. I also thought about cutting the footwells back to inline w/ the existing companionway deck which would be only a little less easy, but even that seems like I'm sacraficing comfort and useful space while sailing for the idea that I may use the cabin for more than I actually will. I'm pretty much shelving my dreams of overnighting untill I get a bigger boat. The most use the cabin will likely get is an afternoon nap and misc stowage so it really seems like any accomodation for room 'down below' at the cost of room in the cockpit is probably mis-directed. That's where I'm at right now anyway ... appreciate the suggestion though.

Well, I flipped my weekender back right side up this morning, and poked around for a couple hours thinking things thru. Having not made any real effort in nearly 4 years, it was good to get aquatinted again. Thinking about Dave R1's open face seat mod mostly, and whether I should consider more effort to expand the cockpit. Just puttering at it this year, but figured the cockpit is the place to start due to my concerns w/ space mentioned a few weeks ago. If I do the open bench seating I've got a lot of work to do .. or undo. The seats are basically done, the cockpit is bondo'd and the underseat compartments & cabin are sealed w/ 5200, as is the laz. I had also added a companionway deck at the cockpit side of the companionway to stow stuff from inside ... cool feature, but more suited for a bigger boat. Changing to a very simple cockpit w/ open bench seats will mean tearing a lot of completed stuff out and patching the openings in the bulkhead. A lot of work to undo, though I really think I probably should do it to make the cockpit more comfortable. Sitting in the boat this morning and putting my feet in the underseat compartment really strongly suggests its the right thing to do. A couple of issues seemed obvious, thought you all might have thoughts to offer. 1) When I get rid of the existing seats, there will remain cleats / stringers sealed w/ 5200, and those areas will now be exposed cockpit. I should really glass them. Can I get a good glass bond where 5200 once was? 2) Patching the bulkhead really should mean adding additional cleats / stringers to the hull side, but that would mean putting screws in an already epoxied, fared, sanded & primered hull. Am I just asking for trouble if I grind epoxy back, set new screws into the ply and patch the epoxy w/ a glass cloth patch, or is this something to avoid? I think it should bond completely and be as good as the original epoxy (the hard part being faring it to match the orig), but I want to be sure I'm not introducing a point of inevitable failure. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Hi Steve ... York eh? You really were up in my neck of the woods. Yeah, Branched Oak, Pawnee lake are definite draws. I also camp a lot south in Kansas which is where I tend to pull the camper, and will be looking to cartop. I'll definitely look closely at the Garvey skiff, you've got a great looking boat there and the stability sounds great. Thanks for the suggestion!

Good advice Charlie, thanks for that. I'll keep looking, I'm not ready to do this yet anyway. Wonder about the wisdom of building a more traditionally built boat, then applying nesting principals to it? (i.e. bulkheads, then cut in half). Seems like that might hold just as many dangers, eh?

Thanks for the input Garry, most helpful. I'd run things by Graham first, but out of curiosity as you've gone thru the building process, would simply scaling the plans for the 12 up to 14 or stretching the 12 to 14 be most doable? Or would it require some additional redesign to be practical from a builder's & users perspective considering my goals (i.e. I suspect I might need to have an additional scarf for the panels)? <edit> I've seen a rig for single-handed car topping too, something like a hinged cradle that allows you to load comfortably from the side and then move it into place for the drive. Probably have a bookmark somewhere. </edit>

I kind of wondered if 12' would be adequate. Suppose it's probably not that hard to find a rental for the day at a couple of the larger lakes w/in an afternoon's drive. If I remember right, 12' aluminum boats have a pretty low freeboard which would be a bit scary with a couple big guys moving about. 14's may too, can't remember. My dad had a 16 for years, and it was fine for what he needed but would be hell to cartop. It may be that my only solution will be to trailer, but that means it won't go if the camper does, which is where I'm going to be when the weekender is complete (and it won't make much of a fishin' boat either). As I think the Spindrift is largely considered a tender, not sure if anyone's even requested exploring a modification to 14'. I'll have to e-mail Graham if and when I actually start looking to start into a project like this. Guess I could always stick to canoeing.

Thanks Garry, very helpful! If I recall correctly from reading other posts of yours, you are a cruiser who built an 11N as a tender? (ok, ok ... so I spent a couple hours over the weekend drooling over your expedition dinghy and your other sailboats, lol). I'm quite landlocked, just about smack-dab in the middle of the US, and my cruising is mostly imaginary ... my needs are a bit more modest, but it's the versatility of the Spindrift that attracts me. If I build a spindrift one day (after my current project) it would largely be for fishing small lakes under power, puttering around on smaller lakes under sail, and rowing across even smaller lakes to get to a couple favorite secluded campsites. Also, I like the idea that the Spindrift would fit nicely on my popup camper, or even atop my blazer, and that the nesting version could break down for storage in a modest garden shed (no garage available, only room for one boat in the drive). But I'm a big guy, come from big stock, and have a few big friends. How would you feel about a couple 6'-5" 300+ pounders along for the ride in your 11' dinghy? Then add in my 6'-1, just under 300 self. Is it getting scary yet? <edit> I imagine under power or rowing 2 and occassionally 3 on board (if rowing + camping gear), under sail: 2 max</edit> Appreciate any comments

Kinda ... Maybe a little more description ... I went to your site quickly, and in plan proportionally it's similar to the SimpleSimon or Fisher 10 you have shown, though it may narrow ever so slightly at the stern. In other words it's wider than the guideboat by a fair bit, assuming the guideboat shown is about the same length. The tumblehome on the guideboat is pretty close, but if I remember right it is a bit more dramatic and starts at the stern gradually flaring till just before midships. It probably has a little V to the bottom like the guideboat or Fisher, can't remember, but I'm pretty certain it had rounded chines. Think common aluminum V-bottom ... but w/ a much flatter bottom and tumblehome at the stern. I remember many years ago seeing a small aluminum runabout with nearly the same hull shape, and was fascinated with it at the time. My memory is always a bit suspect, but this is how I remember it. Appreciate the suggestion. The guideboat is a good looking craft and I've seen pics of a few of those.

Has anybody here been to the Cabelas in Kansas City and seen the wooden fishing boat on the wall in their boating department? It's probably a 12' - 14' or so, cedar strip construction (I think), open, flat-bottom w/ round chines and a good deal of tumblehome at the stern. It has ribs every 4 inches or so, and is bright finished inside, painted outside, and was definitely made for an outboard, not sail. Of course they've got a bunch of old fishing gear, a cooler, etc. "decorating" it, which is cute if not a little tacky ... but I've stood and stared at it a few times when down that way and really like the proportions and craftsmanship. No idea really when it would have been built, but if I was to guess I'd say probably sometime in the 50's. <edit>Actually, probably much earlier</edit> Not that it's in my plans for future efforts or anything, and not too sure what brought it to mind, but I was trying to find pictures of similar boats online and no matter how I form my search I keep coming up blank. I'd call it a fishing boat, but it probably has a more official type associated w/ it. Just curious if anyone knows of pics of an old boat of similar size and construction I could add to my collection. Next time I'm down that way I'll try to remember to take a camera.

I've long admired the Spindrift, especially the nesting versions due to ease of stowage. I've really enjoyed checking out all of your pictures here. I'm just curious ... why no 12N? I figured this had been asked, but haven't found it. Two larger adults could pretty much exceed the maximum capacity (sailing) given on the B&B site for the 11, and larger frames would do well to have the additional length I'd think. Would there be anything preventing someone from applying the nesting details to the Spindrift 12?

I really appreciate all of the input folks. Any comments on the potential impact on performance if I were to move the pivot point for the rudder back just a few inches if I decided it would help with room in the cockpit? I just thought of that when I was typing this morning, and haven't thought it thru. I wouldn't think it would matter all that much, but I'm no naval engineer may be way off base with that guess. How about my thought of dropping the seats 4" or so to lower the CG(assuming the seat fronts are eliminated)? Will that help at all with stability or will it make the boat less comfortable to sail considering the room issues?

Yeah, I'm not modifying the hull at this point. I really wish I'd followed my initial impulse and scaled the design up some. But I didn't, and that's that. I doubt I'd have gotten as far as I did before having to stop had I taken that path anyway, so it's probably all for the best. I know Mike S argued that there is plenty room for 3 "full sized" adults, but I've just never bought that ... though I'm sure he's had plenty of experience to back that up. Sounds like some experimentation with movable ballast once I'm finally underway is called for, then make it permanent once I find the best compromise.

That's really good to know Jake, thanks. Do you feel super crowded with your bigger buddy onboard?

Hi Ray, great to hear from you again too! Thanks for the comments, especially on the instability forward, and your experience w/ the cockpit size. I remember watching Scott Cozad and Konrad take Shirley Ann out for her first (or second) inaugural sail and it did seem really touchy. Any suggestions beyond ballast to counter that? I understand the loss of interest, I've waned on that end too for awhile. Not really loss of interest, just different priorities, but it happens to us all.

Hi kydocfrog, Yeah, I've considered a cuddy cabin as well. But I'm not as fond of the looks, and if I took the leap to hack into the cabin I'd probably go "all the way" and remove it. I'm quite fond of how my boat looks, so I'm really hesitant, but I'd rather do it now than find I need to later and have to undo a finished boat. Hey Bill ! Great to know you're still so active in the small boat community. Yankton has provided me with many great and grand memories ... I sure miss Norm, his passing was a huge loss to all wooden boat lovers. I can't believe Yankton was so long ago, how is it possible 6 years have passed? As enthusiastic as I was then, it's really a shame. But life kinda threw me a few curves as it tends to do, and I had to re-prioritize a bit and put some dreams on hold. My weekender has been sorely neglected, though I do sill visit her once in awhile to keep in touch and ensure she's still protected and safe, and she is in fine shape. (My brother likes to pester me w/ a little song ... "Arlen's got a boat but it don't float, do da, do da" ... lol) Thanks for posting the pics. While removing the lazarette would definitely provide more space, it's probably in the wrong direction. Moving my bulk further aft will likely do as Kydocfrog suggests and affect trim. When I go canoeing, my canoe partner is about 120 lbs lighter than I am. We do the equivalent of wheelies on the river - he's lucky he can touch the water I do expect to add ballast in the forepeak as needed to counter that as best I can. I'll definitely consider a trip north. Not sure I can pull it off, but it would be a welcome relief from the past few years of nothing but work, work, work. I really need to get a life again.

To add to the thoughts above, my experience over the past decade w/ canoeing is that I tend to raise the CG a lot in a small boat. I've looked at a lot of boat pics, specifically open daysailers, but boats of all types really. It appears to me that many if not most traditional daysailers have very low seats. Would there in your mind be an advantage to lowering the seats, regardless of whether I go open or not? Also, I intended to do a thru-lazarette tiller (shaft thru the aft deck) and have her setup for that, but have decided to abandon that for a more traditional over-the-transom tiller. One reason is to simplify construction so there are fewer opportunities for failure. But this makes me wonder if there is any advantage, or if there might be substantial disadvantage to moving the point of pivot even further aft, in the effort to gain a little in elbow room in the cockpit. That might work against me as it could mean the swing of the working end of the tiller could be greater, though probably not as it would move aft too. It might negatively affect performance though, I just don't know enough to judge. Moving the working end even a few inches aft would seem a worthwhile consideration though, if I'm not messing other things up. I have no desire to have a wheel, even though it does eliminate this concern. Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

Hey all ... it's been about, well ... 4 years since I posted around here. Unfortunately, it's been about 4 years since I worked on my weekender as well. Long story, but she's safe, wrongside up. glassed and awaiting my attention when I can get back to her. I'm really getting the itch again seeing a friend (and Vacationer builder) build a strip cedar kayak, and the spring weather is driving me nuts. Really nice to see some friendly names from way back still active around here. Frank, you've done a super job keeping the community alive! Anyway ... I've got my excuses if ya want to hear them, but that's not why I'm posting. I hope to start puttering again this year. Time won't allow me to finish this season, but I'm in desperate need of some kind of therapy, lol, and I know how good building is for the insides. I've had lots of time to think, and old concerns still come up. I'm a pretty big feller > 6'-1" and 285 or so and I've always been a bit concerned the Weekender was going to be too small for me. Having had the genuine pleasure of sailing w/ Bill and Nancy Paxton in the now famous open weekender several years ago, it's always stuck in my mind just how roomy it was for three adults. It really was a joy, and is a beautiful boat. Based on that sail, I occasionally decide I'm going to remove the cabin when I get back to building. But then I waffle and say no, no, don't do it. I'm sure I won't use the cabin for much more than stowage, but it's built and looks grand as it is. I did push the bulkhead forward 6" in hopes that would help space wise, but it still seems awfully small. I discovered Dave R1's seats w/o fronts mod a few minutes ago, and think at the very least I might do that mod to give me some leg room, but still ... So ... on the off chance there might be a few "healthier" folks sailing weekenders, how do you find the fit? Though it's almost definitely some ways off before I get to it, before I glass the topsides I need to make a decision ... either take Bill's lead and go topless, or stick with the path I committed to. I'd appreciate any thought's you could offer. (BTW, were posts archived or lost some years back? I only find one of my own, and I know I was more active than that, even w/ my failing memory).

Hi Kai, I'm doing that. Don't have it all rigged yet and not sure if it'll even work, but here's the plan right now. Wish I had some good pics for you but I don't ... it's still about 1/2 theory, but a number of the parts are done and I think it'll work. I'll try to explain as well as I can.... hope I don't lose you. I cut off the stub tiller and modified the rudder box. I moved the top eye bolt that acts as a part of the hinge down a few inches to clear the connection of a new tiller shaft. I then drilled a hole thru the transom and rear deck inline with the shaft of the hinge. I epoxied a 1/2" dia length of CPVC (the thin walled plastic pipe) between the hole in the transom and the hole in the rear deck to act as a guide bearing for the tiller shaft. It seems solid enough (was worried the epoxy wouldn't bond, but it seemed to). I drove a 3/8" dia length of CPVC over a piece of threaded rod and mounted it securely in the hinge eyes to hold things inline as they cured. The 3/8" CPVC fits perfectly over the threaded rod and near perfectly inside the 1/2" piece, so that will probably sheath the final tiller shaft and act as the inner surface of my "bearing", though I may go for a thicker tiller shaft and nix the sheathing. Here's the tricky part. You have to create a tiller shaft that can be securely attached to the tiller and rudder box and resist all the leverage the water will put on it, which has had me scratching my head for more hours than I will admit. I've settled on this.... I'll have a pro weld up a length of solid SS rod with a 4" or 6" tab on the bottom end that will in turn be thru bolted inside the rudder box. The top end of the shaft still has to be connected to the tiller, and I think I am going to have them make me up a good friction coupler of some sort (a pipe with a slot and tabs that can be thru bolted?). I can't do the same on top as I did on bottom as you have to get the shaft thru the bearing. It's taken a lot of work where the other options are definitely easier and are probably less prone to failure. It is an experiment, but I'm pretty confident I can get it to work and it'll make my boat unique (for now ... well except for yours of course, lol). If I've totally confused you I'll try to draw up something to explain myself and e-mail it to you. BTW - FRANK! nice site man ... noticed it not long after you changed over, but been a busy feller and not around much anymore. Keep up the good work.