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Ballast Tank Blues


Steve W

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I'm really bummed and at a standstill. This hobby is supposed to be fun, but I am not feeling it.

 

Any advice for glassing the inside of this ballast tank? I tried one section and it just isn't going good. I filet-ted all of the 90 degree joints carefully and tried to wrap the fiberglass and gett he small half circle drainage ports to seal...... I just pulled it all out and threw it in the trash. There are just to many compound joints for it to lay smooth. Around the stringers it's a mess also.  If I could redesign it to use a standard plastic tank I'd do it right now. I have zero faith in getting it sealed and tabbed properly to the hull . I'm actually starting to think the fiberglass lining is a bad idea, but it may be because its beyond my skill set. Arrrrggggghh!    And because I have a job, the resin will harden and I'll have to sand it again before I do anything else this weekend. Double Arrrgggghhhhh!

 

Have many B & B boats been built this way with water ballast?

 

I'm was dreading this job from the minute it was suggested it should be glassed. Jay, Doug, Chick, Graham.....did you actually do this as I haven't seen any picture evidence.

 

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OK.I've calmed down a bit. Perusing the forum I found Grahams words from 2003..."With regard to the wood/epoxy tank: Even though you "empty" the boat on the trailer - in reality there is still some water/moisture in there and very little relative ventilation. I would consider it to be a "damp environment". Therefore, I would carefully fiberglass the whole tank structure and the bottom of the sole/tanktop. With this sort of work of course, you don't know if you have done a good job until 10 years later, if the hull starts rotting out. In terms of the amount of work this structure would entail, it would be comparable with building a lead keel. It is just a different procedure and depends on your comfort zone working with the different materials."

 

And that is the rub. I am going to have a lot invested and once you seal that tank there is no easy way to get back in. I am building a family heirloom, so I have to figure this out.

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If you think there's a high probability of failure in the following day's events, you'll likely find a way to make this so tomorrow. 

 

Is the top of the tank open? In other words what is the issue, access or just getting things to lay down the way you want? On some odd shaped compartments, I've used a reverse vacuum bag of sorts. I've applied the tape/fabric and done as well as I could, then inserted a big trash bag into the compartment over peel ply or bleeder cloth and peel ply. Next, I fill the trash bag with hot water, straight from the hot water heater (about 125 degrees), which makes the goo kick off quick. The water filled bag, applies pressure all around the inside of the compartment, with each element having pressure on it, though admittedly, not uniform, but enough to insure good contact.

 

Maybe a belt and suspenders approach. Do the 'glass work and once cured, spray or brush the inside of the compartment with truck bed liner or elastomeric roof coating, just to be sure.

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I expect Graham to answer but there is no need to make a job more difficult than it needs to be.  In that regard there is no need to glass the corners if you find that too hard.  The epoxy filets will make a waterproof seal in the corners very well without the glass and you can just glass the rest of the interior of the box easily.  Make sure the surfaces are all resin rich for a long term life of the tank.  I don't know if Graham specifies both taped seams as well as a full sheath but doubt both are necessary.  A glass sheath will make it more certain that enough resin is applied to give long term waterproof results. 

 

I see Paul was typing faster than me.  The bag approach sounds good but make sure that there are no glass snags that could puncture the thin bags.  May not be a disaster if it does but I'd double the bags.  Of course, the filets should be cured and rough snags sanded before doing this. 

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I glassed the tank / cockpit module before installing it. First I had it upside down and glassed all of the surfaces that were vertical or "leaning forward", then I turned it over to do the other side of the ones that were "leaning forward". I cut the glass for each panel just a little over size so they would overlap in the corners by 1/2" to an inch. Also overhang the edges where I trimmed it flush when it cured. I did not try to wrap around the cleats, or into the holes. All of these areas will have at least three heavy coats of resin on them, as should all of the glass areas. I also glassed the hull under where the module would go, and the tops. Let the assemble dry, and scuff  sand the gloss off all areas that will be filleted and glass taped to the hull unless you are "in the window" after the last coat of resin is on the module.

 

Be sure the parts are held square by laying it the cockpit sole in place until the corners are glassed, and the unit is set up level. Be sure to glue the top on with plenty of goo to fill the gaps.Take it in small steps and it will be easy---well' at least not a hard as you imagine. Oh yeah, leave the inspection caps off when the boat is ashore to allow good ventilation, be sure to add another hatch in the area aft that is not part of the ballast tank.

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I've learned the hard way about leaking bags Tom, but it doesn't make as big a problem as many might think. I do run my hand around looking for plastic "meat hooks" if the area has previous sheathings, but I haven't run into this issue since learning to check the space first. I agree, I don't see a need for sheathings over well done fillets and well encapsulated surfaces, but . . .

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Thanks. It's a new day with a better outlook. I need to get stubborn and get past this.

 

Maybe I'm not sure the point of the glass then. If just coating the cleats and endgrain of the holes is good enough then why glass the tank at all? By reading what it says in the manual "all plywood surfaces inside the ballast tank be covered with a layer of 6 oz. fiberglass cloth", I assume the vulnerable end grain  and cleats (douglas fir) is most important. All the round water passages especially in the bottom are most vulnerable to rot. If multiple coats of goo are enough to waterproof a perpetually wet area ( give zero chance of getting this area dry unless there is a second port put in), maybe I'm worrying too much. Chick did you trim around the holes with a knife in the green stage and only glass up tot he stringers? That would be easy (actually just less hard).

 

I guess I need clarification. I'll call B & B although I'm hesitant to interrupt their EC prep.

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Steve,...

I see you've received lots of suggestions. Maybe my comments could be helpful for builders who haven't started the process. So here goes:

1. Corners are defined as the intersection of two planes. A tri-corner is the point where three planes meet. Stay away from them.

2. Do the outside corners first. They're easier because they all can be done while standing outside the boat. Don't [yet] do the corners with the hull side panels. And before you insert the module you should have done the filleting and glassing for the module corners that do not rest on the hull bottom.

3. Lay out a schedule of each corner and divide them into groups. I labeled three groups RED, GREEN & BLUE. Each group would be done on separate days. For two reasons: 1st, there will be some gaps between the module and the hull and you don't want your fillet on one side to push out the fillet [just applied] on the other side. But just as important, you want a place to put your feet when doing the work so that you can sit on top of the tank structure and more easily reach the bottom. Here's the layout that I used:

post-4915-0-33754300-1453297729_thumb.jpegpost-4915-0-77307800-1453297768_thumb.jpeg

4. Measure, cut, and label each 3" glass tape in advance. In my case there were 45 of them. Cut a knotch for each stringer that has to be crossed. I measured so that the ends wouldn't get too close the next corner or the drain / air holes. Plan the sequence of application and sort the glass tapes accordingly.

5. Plan to do the filleting of each corner of a GROUP in the morning or late afternoon. And then the glassing later after a partial cure of the fillets (afternoon after a morning filleting OR next morning after an afternoon filleting). My first GROUP was R which had 19 corners. I didn't start until about 9:30 am and the fillets didn't firm up [enough] until after supper. Then the glassing made it a very long day. I found it much better to apply the fillets in the afternoon and the glassing the next morning. That gave me the rest of the day to do other fun stuff and be rested up for the next GROUP.

6. For the glassing definitely get some help. Even if only to hand you the wetted glass strips. I pre wetted a bunch of strips, then got into the boat where I could apply neat epoxy on the corners -- and then had my helper hand me each strip as I applied them to the corners. If your helper can do the wetting as well as just handing them up, it will reduce the number of times that you have to climb in and out of the boat.

7. After it's all done and before a complete cure -- take a scraper to the edges of the glassing and any other epoxy "high spots." Then a day or to later, sand the fully cured epoxy and apply the final coat of neat epoxy to all tank surfaces using plenty on the drain holes and air passages.

8. It is a major ORDEAL! Lots of bending and contortions with both hands needed down low in narrow spaces with poor visibility. I needed massage therapy when finally finished.

If any of you more experiences builders note any missteps with this -- please make critical comments. No offense will be taken.

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Well Steve, this is the "inverted ribbon toss" I mentioned earlier. Just "think small". I have a bunch of strips of "visquen" plastic sheeting and when I got the glass in place I stitched it down with some of the plastic. It is thick enough plastic that I could pull it off before the epoxy gets super cured. It helps the glass stick where you put it. This was definitely the most difficult part, remembering I am a full size guy!

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I own a software company and a line I always tell our customers is "we'd rather deal with you in your first minute of frustration than your 45th minute. Please call". I needed to follow my own advice.

 

Well I just got off the phone with Graham.  I expect Graham to chime in with what he told me. It turns out I was just following the instructions a bit to literally. Thanks for all the help. I'm fired up to get past this now.

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Steve, to answer your question, yes and no...I trim with the glass in the green stage if I can, but often it's the next morning if I'm doing my glassing late in the day.Then it is mostly cured. 6 oz. glass, and even, 10 oz will trim fairly easily with a sharp razor knife accept where there is a "glob" of resin and glass, or overlapping layers. Then I get as close as I can and finish up with a fine wood rasp. I have one with one side straight, and the other cured. 

 

Lot's of good "stuff" in Pete's post. But to clarify my post and comment on his. No particular order.

 

1. I totally finish all glassing and coating of the module before installing in the hull. Be sure to "scuff" the areas that will be taped when you glass it into the hull.

 

2. I don't seem to have a problem with the fillet "...on one side to push out the fillet [just applied] on the other side." It may be that I mix my fillet putty a little stiffer. But if it does squeeze through, I just go over that side again with my fillet tool.

 

3. I don't pre-wet my glass strips before laying them on. I lay them all where they will go and then wet them in place. I do agree with Pete in doing them in groups if you don't think you can finish them all at once. The more you do, the faster you will go, and the easier it will seem. By the time you finish the boat, you will be an expert...time to give yourself an "atta-boy!"

 

4. I have gotten so I can usually lay and wet the glass directly on freshly applied fillet. Maybe mixing the fillets stiffer allows this, or maybe it's just experience. Works fine either way. If it feels good---do it.

 

5. Regarding Pete's step 2:  "Do the outside corners first. They're easier because they all can be done while standing outside the boat. Don't [yet] do the corners with the hull side panels. And before you insert the module you should have done the filleting and glassing for the module corners that do not rest on the hull bottom." I interpret this as to fillet and glass the panels of the module to the bottom of the hull that you can reach while standing outside the hull. Do not fillet and glass to the hull sides. You'll do this later when the rest of the bulkheads are in place. Otherwise you may have "lumps" or "depressions" in the hull sides from forcing them into an un-natural position. Actually, I find that when the time comes to do this final glassing in of the module and bulkheads, it's good to temporarily clamp a sheer stringer (outwale, sheer clamp) around the outside, top of the hull sides to hold a fair curve.

 

By taking small steps at a time and not worrying about finishing the whole job, you'll find it to "... be easy (actually just less hard).

 

"If you ask ten boat builders how to do something, you'll get eleven different answers..." And after awhile, your way will add a twelfth.

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I too rarely use the wet on method, preferring to apply fabric then wet it out in place. For moving goo around, particularly under 'glass or plastic sheeting, a soft plastic applicator or squeegee works much better than a knife. Epoxy work is about procedure and setup. Assuming sound procedures, it's just the setup, so work areas you can, maybe a logical plan of attack to address issues, such as vertical surfaces, corners, etc. Pre-cut everything, do a few dry runs to insure you have everything you need, where you need it, especially tools, then mix the goo. When you seal up the weave, use a slightly thickened mix, to improve film thickness and make filling the weave easier.

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Howard. Here are some of mine. Check out pages 2 and 3 of my build for more discussion. http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/9480-core-sound-17-mk-3-summer-breeze/page-2

 

post-1823-0-22113500-1453386168_thumb.jpg  Glassing inside of c/b trunk.

 

post-1823-0-67050500-1453386169_thumb.jpg  Another view. Note that the edges were radiused and the glass wrapped over.

 

post-1823-0-19525800-1453386171_thumb.jpg  Beginning assembly. I now added fillets to all of the corners...

 

post-1823-0-55976700-1453386172_thumb.jpg  Another view.  ...and let the fillets cure.

 

post-1823-0-57727100-1453386173_thumb.jpg  Another view.

 

post-1823-0-54591300-1453386174_thumb.jpg  Glassing bottom of cockpit sole sections.

 

I glass taped the vertical corners on the outside of the module and let them cure before removing clamps and the sole sections that I temporarily had in place while running fillets. 

post-1823-0-53600600-1453386175_thumb.jpg  Dry glass on panels. The angled frames are glassed on the "high" side. Let's gravity work for you.

 

post-1823-0-55965500-1453386176_thumb.jpg  Another view after wetting out. Note the glass overhanging the edges and overlapping in corners.

 

I don't have a picture with the module turned over and the other side of the angled panels glassed. After trimming and cleaning up the overhands and inside of holes and scuppers, another couple of coats of resin were added to everything paying special attention to the edges, inside of holes, and cleats.

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Chick:

 

That helps. Is it possible to glass all these panels before they are assembled into the frame? While they can still be laid flat? Then fillet and glass over the fillets to install them?

 

Second part.......this is essentially a closed box of 6 sides (four sides, top and bottom). Five of the six sides are not so hard as you can still get to them. How does one do a good job of sealing up the last side? Are there enough access ports on the top panel to be able to reach the entire interior to such a degree that you can do a good job of tabbing this to the bottom of the boat........fillets and tape?

 

The saving grace of this would seem to be if it is entirely enclosed, and is only used to hold water, you don't have to have a perfect sanded smooth finish on it. Or maybe you do to keep any mud and debris in the water from sticking to the interior?

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Howard,

1. I suppose you could pre-glass the panels. I wonder if anyone has done it?

 

2. You install the module with the top (cockpit sole---floor) off. There are only two (One in by design, I think most of us add another.), so there is not access to large areas. The top is screwed down onto a good bed of epoxy putty. It would be a good idea to be sure that the top of the module where you will screw the top down to, is well coated with epoxy at the same time you coat the rest of the module. This will ensure that any water won't have a place to penetrate into the wood. By-the-way, while the watertight "boxes" are "6-sided", they have baffles inside.

 

3. I don't worry much over the interior, but it should be pretty smooth anyway. Water only comes in through the Anderson bailer, unless you add a pump or another opening---I'll have a through hull "drain tube" like boats have on the transom. This allows the tank to fill quicker, and if the boat is moving forward so you can't use the bailer to fill the tank.) The water coming in should be pretty clean unless you sail in a REALLY muddy lake. Only the forward compartment is the water ballast tank. The aft section is "supposed" to stay dry.

 

Here are some pictures of the module being installed in the boat. The floor (sole) isn't installed yet, except the third picture.

post-1823-0-30884300-1453420474_thumb.jpg  post-1823-0-35426800-1453420475_thumb.jpg  post-1823-0-46449100-1453420476_thumb.jpg

 

Oh, yeah, in boat-speak, the floor is the sole. Floors are frames under the sole. Sole is not the same as "soul". But ya gotta have soul (sole) brother! Not only that, but the ceiling is not overhead, it's the lining on the sides against the ribs, and over your head is the "overhead". I think you already know what the pointy end and the flat end are called. Now why we say "port" and "starboard" instead of "left" and "right".......

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But did you know where the terms come from? Over on the Atlantic coast of Mother England, the sailing ships in the days of yore had to follow the prevailing winds down the coast to where they would catch the trades to head over to the colonies. The PORTS were on the left side and the STARS were on the right side, or STARBOARD. True story---Now, would I mislead you?

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There's lots of conjecture about these (and other) terms, though the prevailing acceptance is, the "steering board" was typically mounted to starboard, which eventually got butchered into starboard. Port was the side of the boat, being opposite of the steering board and not damaged if they rafted up, so this name stuck too. 

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