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Thrillsbe

Snotter Placement

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Over the holidays, I will be very close to a sail maker.  (The nearest one to my home is a 4 hour drive.)  I'm going to take the opportunity to have my Bay River Skiff sails changed to a sleeve mounting.  It came with slides, but I am striving for simplicity on this boat.  I have no reef points.  I'm looking for some guidance on where the gap for the snotter should be located in the sleeve.  I've looked on sail plans for the BRS15 and the CS15; neither specify snotter location. Is this something I need to find experimentally?  What should I be looking for?  

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Why not use the sail with slides? You could still wrap the sail around the mast for storage. Then you have the option of adding a halyard and reef points at a later date.

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Are you sure there is no measurement on your plans?

My CS 17 plans from 2006 had a page marked "mast and sail plan" with the snotter position marked- see here

post-425-0-48060800-1448915761_thumb.jpg

Maybe missing a sheet of the plans? Even if there is no actual measurement recorded you should have something on your plans you can scale it off.

 

I also would recommend leaving the slides and using sail track. If you don't want to use it at this time just tie the head to the mast top and roll it like you would with a sleeve. You then have the option of halyard later and you don't have to spend the money adding sleeves :)

 

Cheers

Peter HK

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On the CS-15 there is (at least on my copy) a dimension for the snotter location on the Mast plan not on the sail plan. It is a dimension from the bottom of the mast to the eye strap location. I'll see if I can get the BRS plans and figure this out for you Thrillsbe. We're dealing with printer failure this week. New one on it's way so Graham may not be able to respond to this today. 

 

-Alan

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Just in case you don't have enough opinions concerning keeping the slides I will chime in.  I have the sleeve sails on my Spindrift and did so due to simplicity and savings.  It was a tender, so why go to a lot of hassle?  I regret it.  No, it isn't the end of the world but the considerations mentioned above were all experienced.  I can see people going the sleeve route at the start, there are a couple reasons for doing it.  But both of those reasons (simplicity and a few bucks) I see disappear after the boat is built.  Is there something you can do with your slide luff sail to meet your new concerns without going to a luff sleeve?  Sailmakers can modify sails as well.

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Don, you and I may be the only ones left who prefer luff sleeves.

 

First and foremost, the sleeve luff is a far far superior airfoil. This is most important going to windward.

 

Being able to drop your sails when pulled up to a beach is no easier than neatly wrapping the sails around the mast. If you have telescopic sprits they can be stowed and your boat is ready for fishing, swimming, lounging etc.

 

Rigging is quicker and easier.

 

Reefing is more complicated.

 

                                                                                                                                                  Who reefs?

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First and foremost, the sleeve luff is a far far superior airfoil. This is most important going to windward.

 

Being able to drop your sails when pulled up to a beach is no easier than neatly wrapping the sails around the mast.

 

                                                                                                                                                  Who reefs?

 

We must have very different definitions for "far superior".  I would call the difference minimal.

 

Wrapping sails around the mast requires vertical battens, or none at all.  This means little to no roach in the sails.  Roach adds quite a bit of efficiency and sail area without a taller mast or longer foot to the sail.  In other words, without redesigning the rig.   I bet roach adds more to the performance of the boat than the luff sleeve due to sail area and sail shape.   When I requested the top 2 battens be full on my sails Graham also suggested more roach than the original design.  Properly tensioned full battens create a beautiful curve.  I have no comparison, but I like my sails a lot.

 

People in New England reef a lot.

 

Again, there are many subjective factors that go into decisions about boats but some parameters require trade offs from other parameters.  If boat performance is the most important by far, I would choose clip top full batten sails reinforced with carbon and/or Kevlar with B&B's new internal track..  But they would be expensive and look funny IMO on my Lapwing.

 

Do what you gotta do, but make sure you do it for the right reasons, or at least your reasons knowing what they are and what you traded off for them.

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Thanks for the support, Gordy!  I'm with you on the "who reefs" comment.  I'm a lazy daysailer.  If it's blowing like that, I'll probably stay home and do some chores. (Heaven forbid!)  Telescoping sprits?  Hmm...

 

Dave-- the sails on the BRS15 have no roach.  What's a batten?  ;-)

 

I've always been a fan of "less is more".  Adding a track, pop rivets, cheek blocks, halyards & cleats is heading in the wrong direction for my philosophy.  In fact, I am trying to minimize the number of rattly, squeaky metal-to-metal connections on my boat by using lashings to attach my Orbit 20's and 30's.  I know that there'll be a replacement factor for those lashings, in the long run, but in the meantime the boat should be just a little quieter.  And frankly, I don't see a thing wrong with storing the sails in the way shown in the photo below.  In fact, it's quite tidy!

post-3770-0-78866200-1449070241_thumb.jpg

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I am ultimately unfamiliar with the details of this rig, but couldn't you lace them to the masts? I did that on my old sharpie.

Maybe not as efficient or simple as sleeves, but cheaper. Still quiet, and no icky rivets or sail track.

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I could, Robert.  That was the initial, intermediate step.  But I have a chance to get the sleeve installed over the holidays, so I thought I'd just go for it.  I laced the spritsail to the mast on the red dinghy in my profile (and attached) photo.  It works nicely.  But the sleeve is sexy-smooth.  Aerodynamic!

post-3770-0-98080200-1449072530_thumb.jpg

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I got the impression that you had the masts and sails already done with slides and track.  I also assumed that if the sails had tracks, they had roach and battens.  Did you mean you have the sails, but the masts are not made yet? The sails have no roach or battens?  In other words, they were designed to be round the mast furled?  And now that you have the sails you are considering the change in method for attaching the luff to the mast?  And nothing else?

 

My assumptions come from the fact that Graham has variations of sail designs for some of his boats.  This is because he started out offering simple designs with minimal hardware, expense and easy to use.  As a design becomes popular the demand for more sophisticated stuff by some comes along.   When you said you had track sails, I just assumed you went to one of these evolutions.

 

This makes the scenario entirely different.  You have 2 choices, put tracks on the masts or change the sails to sleeves?  As Rosanne Rosannadanna would say, "Never mind".  The choice between those options is rather subjective as the trade offs are minimal.

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Good question, Dave.  Here are my answers:

  1. The masts are partially completed.  They are ready for gluing together, but I'm holding off right now.  I need to fix my remaining two mast steps, and would prefer to do this with only the bottom section.  Very soon, I'll be asking y'all about this mysterious etching primer that I'm to use on the mast. (Can't I just hit it with some muratic acid, before I rinse and use "normal" primer?)
  2. As purchased from B&B, my BRS15 sails have no roach or battens.  This is per the plans, and is in keeping with the spirit of the boat.  (Pleasure and simplicity over speed.)  But they also came with the old-style sail slides attached to them.  To me, this is a step away from the spirit of simplicity.  But I suppose if customers are yearning for shouts of "raise the mains'l, me lad!", you have some of your sail inventory done up with slides.  No matter, they may be removed for those of us who have not read so many pirate adventures.

So, at the present time I have options.  As you know, my preference is to simplicity, laziness, and lower cost*.  My previous refit was anything but.  (see link below)  But this boat is beckoning to my lazy side.

 

* Truth be known, my preference is actually "finding the most efficient, low-cost, lowest-weight, and simplest solution to a problem/task/need".  And I don't mind thinking outside the box, and trying stuff.  Yes, I'm a retired engineer.

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* Truth be known, my preference is actually "finding the most efficient, low-cost, lowest-weight, and simplest solution to a problem/task/need".  And I don't mind thinking outside the box, and trying stuff.  Yes, I'm a retired engineer.

 

Well, let's start with the first parameter of most efficient.  Right there you can throw out low cost and simple.  I want a $million, but I don't want to work hard, rob a bank  or think too much.  My odds are really bad.

 

I think what you really mean is that you want to keep your sails but are willing to spend a few bucks to modify them to luff sleeves if that is a good idea.  You have halted work on the masts until you resolve this, a good idea.  Under your circumstances, with your expressed priorities it would seem that changing to luff sleeves meets all your needs and possibly exceeds at some.   And when comparing the expense of track and materials to install it, versus the expense of modifying the luff of your sails I would guess they are close to a wash.

 

I'm not sure how that link applies.  It is a sloop with shrouds, conventional boom, boom vang and internal track (as if you didn't know).  None of which apply here.  Though it looks like you did quite a snazzy job of it.

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