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olp4835

CSS 15 vs goat island skiff

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The Goat is very fast and relatively less stable.  A very different sail plan.  Lug vs Cat/Ketch.

 

I had never sailed a Cat/Ketch rig before I built my CS 17 'Lively' in 2007 so needless to say I am very biased toward the CS 15.  The rig is just so forgiving and also fast. I believe you would find the CS 15 to be a much more stable boat.  So if you want wild and crazy fun go with the Goat but if you want fast stable easy to handle go with the CS 15.

 

There is a great video showing the CS 15 sailing which I think you can get on the B&B website but if not maybe someone on this forum can help.  It is excellent.

 

In summary, I believe you cannot go wrong with a B&B boat and the CS 15 would be a great boat.

 

dale

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I am biased of course because I work for B&B and I have built and sailed a CS-15 and have not sailed a GIS but i did a quick search for videos of capsize recovery after seeing what flotation the GIS offers. I will say that I would definitely want to add some buoyancy tanks to the GIS like the Core Sounds have if i were to build one. 

 

That being said, The CS 15 is going to be a lot more boat to build as compared to the GIS. 

 

Video of capsized GIS. see how low she sits in the water. 

 

Capsize and recovery of a GIS. lots of bailing and not a lot of stability while swamped full of water due to the free surface effect. 

 

Compare that to a Core Sound 15. Here is a link to a photo gallery I just uploaded. Also there is a 21 video series on building the CS-15 here.  

 

And here is a video of sailing a CS-15.

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The CS-15 compares well with the GIS, though there are significant differences. The GIS is a smaller boat (significantly so), in spite of her slightly longer length. The GIS will plane off in lighter air than the CS-15, but will be in need of a reef sooner. The CS-15 will be a drier boat and tolerate stiffer winds longer than the GIS. The GIS will be closer winded, but lacks the maneuverability options available with the cat ketch rig of the CS-15. The CS-15 can be built with enough floatation to keep her afloat, with a crew aboard and permit her to lie high on her side in a capsize. The GIS has some floatation chambers, though I don't think enough to support more than a capsized boat and a soaked skipper. Lastly, the GIS is a solo boat, though enough room for two, with 3 being crowded. The CS-15 can accommodate 4 and is more of a two person boat. In simple terms, the CS-15 is a more capable boat in terms of load capacity and a good "raid" boat, while the GIS is sportier and geared for day sailing with less storage a protection from the elements.

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Hi OLP,

 

I was asking myself the same question a little over a year ago, and I settled on the CS15.  I want a boat for dinghy cruising and day sailing with family & friends, and I'm looking forward more to adventures than adrenaline.   The clincher for me was looking at youtube videos of people sailing the two boats.   The GIS'ers seemed to be doing a lot more hiking and sheet pulling.  On the other hand, even in videos where CS17 owners were zipping along proudly showing off their GPS speeds, they looked comfortable.  Dry stowage and especially bench seats are a big plus.   Sailing is supposed to make me happy, so there have to be designated places for hineys and sammiches :-).

 

To be fair, I haven't sailed either boat yet, I'm still building!  I also have to admit to being a lug nut, so I'm putting a GIS lug yawl rig on the CS15.   There's a topic on this forum if you're interested.

 

Bob

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Sailing is supposed to make me happy, so there have to be designated places for hineys and sammiches :-).

 

To be fair, I haven't sailed either boat yet, I'm still building!  I also have to admit to being a lug nut, so I'm putting a GIS lug yawl rig on the CS15.   There's a topic on this forum if you're interested.

 

Bob

 

I certainly agree with the first part of this quote.  As much as I like to go fast, I want to relax much of the time, and maybe entertain friends and family.

 

I will never understand redesigning the sail plan of a designer with proven works such as Graham.  That one would do it without ever having sailed the original I find mind boggling.  I understand people wanting period boats, or modern classics like the Petrel (modern knock off of the Herreshoff Fish Class) .  I have even seen a stich'n'glue version of the 12 ½.  But to move to a less efficient rig on a modern looking design I will never understand.

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There's nothing less efficient about a lug Dave. In fact it'll be considerably better upwind, compared to a cat ketch. Given the same area, down wind the lug is less encumbered with drag aloft, because of the extra stick of the ketch too, so all in all, two identically built CS-15's, one with the stock rig and the other with the equivalent area lug, the single stick boat will be the winner. Of course, this comes with some trade offs, like everything else in yacht design, but my point is there's nothing inherently inefficient about the lug.

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I once pulled up to a bunch of sport bikes parked at an ice cream store on my BMW touring motorcycle I used to own. All these kids with their carbon fiber laden bikes were looking with that "Check this old dude" look on their face. As I took off my helmet I said "Wanna race?" to which they started laughing and I added "To Maine?" to which they all gathered around to admire the Beemer and it's different purpose. The bottom line is there are different boats for different things. A Sunfish or Lasers are quite capable boats but who wants to be out on that when it's not nice?

 

I like both of these boats, but if I had to take one with no knowledge of the conditions or water, I'd take the CS15 every time. But I can definitely see the appeal of the Goat. 

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Dave is absolutely right.  It is the height of foolishness to change a proven design from a great designer.  Raise your hand if you think building wooden boats makes perfect sense.

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I think wood is the only material it makes sense to build boats from, even in the form of plywood.

Unless and until we begin cracking other than petroleum oil to make resins, goop is a finite resource, whereas wood is imminently renewable...it literally grows on trees, and growing more boat building material is a win-win for the whole planet.

Also, unless you're using power tools, you don't need respirators and E.T. suits to build a wooden boat.

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I disagree, I tend to modify and change every single other persons design I build, regardless of whom they might be. There are areas and things that every boat can tolerate, without harm and some things, if well thought through will improve them as well. If the boat has a flat transom, it'll look better if it's curved. If the stem isn't a shape you like, you're not going to kill it with a different shape. If you're new to this sort of thing, then don't alter structural stuff or the hull shapes much, without talking it over with the designer. 

 

I also find fixing up a 'glass derelict a noble and enjoyable process. I turned a former trailer sailer into a harbor launch, with a fringed bimini and all, a couple of summers ago. The guy loves it, especially the 1/2 a gallon an hour fuel bill. I fairly regularly flip tired powerboats for profit. Recently I took a three thwart little fishermen and made it into a center console, for a buddy. 

 

Wood is decidedly my favorite material to play with, but aluminum and 'glass have their values too. In fact, I'll use a good bit of aluminum and 'glass on a wooden boat build and conversely, I'll employ some wood on an aluminum or 'glass build, so maybe I just don't have a preference so much, as a desire to get it "right", using the appropriate materials. A turned aluminum dash on a wooden runabout, just looks right and sheathing a wooden hull in 'glass is often a wise choice, as a couple of examples.

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Thanks for the input do like the way the CS15  is sailing. ....  I've watched all the videos that Alan sent me links to.   The Goat looks alittle easier to make but I think I prefer the CS15. Many thanks to all..  

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This forum is awesome. Lots of opinions and information is shared, and not any meanness that I can detect. I love coming here and reading and learning.

I'm so pleased I found this forum, even if I mostly build dumb little boats by eye, or to my own designs, which, in the grand tradition of designers, are simply derivative of other's work. :)

This reminds me of something one of our great writers penned: And of course there is a LITTLE truth to this sort of thinking, because there is a little truth to ANY sort. - William Saroyan

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There's nothing less efficient about a lug Dave. In fact it'll be considerably better upwind, compared to a cat ketch.

I am not talking number of masts and therefore location, but shape of the sail.

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Both the lug and the Bermudian sprit boom suffer from a fouled tack in light air, unless the sprit is half or whole wishbone. Other wise they fair well against each other. If both are cats, The Bermudian is superior upwind, but this isn't the premise posed by the OP. A Bermudian cat ketch with sprit booms will be disadvantaged upwind against a cat lug. The lug can carry an exceptional shape on all points of sail.

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I think it has been proven over and again that a Marconi rig is the most efficient sail shape excluding high tech foils.  Having a really broad sail like a gaff or lug only helps down wind and only adds to healing forces to weather.  This is why booms got shorter and shorter through the CCA years as sail technology made its first huge improvements since the advent of the fore'n'aft rig.  I bet you Paul that a cat rigged Spindrift as designed would sail to weather better than a lug rigged version.  I think people should build what they want.  I think all should sort out the parameters according to their own preferences to decide, and efficiency or performance need not be a primary consideration.  But saying a lug is as efficient as a marconi sail is just not true.

 

Using a sprit sacrifices a small amount of efficiency on one tack but adds simplicity to rigging and tuning sail shape.  If attaining the max performance is the goal, it can be overcome with a wish boom or even conventional boom at the cost of rigging time and a more complex set of controls over sail shape.  These are normal compromises that we all make according to our preferences and priorities.

 

I decided on the Lapwing shortly after seeing Tom's boat at the 1st mess-about.  At the time I was convinced I would make wish booms or conventional booms with outhauls and boom vangs.  The idea of a fouled sail was too much for me to accept.  But as I had no real experience with sprits, and that it would be really easy to change later, and that I didn't know better, I built mine as per design.  I doubt now I will change. Being able to control sail shape with one line and not having a vang in the way of cockpit space  was really easy to get used to.  Ducking under a boom never bothered me.    After my last sail in October, after a screaming plane in a 20 kts. extended gust with just my wife aboard,  I don't see anything that needs fixing at this point.  I will be adding hiking straps.  I wanna do that again, but more comfortably.

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Dave if you look at the evolution of the Bermudan rig, you'll see it's morphing into a quadrilateral shape, much like the lug, though with more aspect ratio. First off, let's compare apples to apples. The premise of this discussion was to compare the GIS to the CS-15, not the merits of the individual mainsails. Sticking to the comparison, the cat lug on the GIS will be closer winded than the Bermudian (not a Marconi) cat ketch with sprit booms. 

 

Back to efficiency, how will this be defined? Just upwind ability, what about the other 270 degrees of available points of sail? Would hoist options be included, which is often necessary with most Bermudan rigs? Do we compare a cat lug against a Bermudian cat ketch or just a Bermudian cat against a lug cat? Simply put, it terms of comparisons, the GIS is faster, more weatherly and a bit more maneuverable, but lacks the capacity, stability and drier, more sedate nature of the CS-15. 

 

Design comparisons are pretty subjective, but some equality and objectiveness can be observed. The GIS is a much smaller boat, literally 2/3's the boat of a CS-15, in terms of volume, 1/2 in terms of weight, which are viable comparisons. We can look at other figures too, such as PPI, Cp, D/L and WA/SA ratios. This would offer something to those well versed in these comparisons as they relate to other boats, not so much to those that don't have this experience. For the most part, these types of decisions are purely personal interpretations of their own experiences and what they gathered from them. 

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