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CS 17 Mizzen Sheet Rigging


Dale Niemann
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I've never used the center thwart for rowing. It's a lot less trouble to row from the front cockpit, bracing your feet on the mizzen than it is to pluck out the mizzen mast. Also, this way means you will be much less hesitant to break out the oars for a quick nudge because you don't have to ruin the boat for sailing in order to row. 

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Tom: Your posting implies that there is a diagram included to show the mizzen sheet arrangement that you prefer. As an old Lightning sailer, I have no problem changing the main sheet, but the mizzen somewhat confushes  me. HELP The digram would help a lot. Thanks, Mick

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Mistermoon, are you using a forward rowing station for the oarlocks?? About a foot forward of the mast?

 

More like 25-28" forward of the mast. I do have the forward cockpit decked over as well, a huge improvement if you haven't done so, BTW.

 

Only real problem with this arrangement is if you run aground while rowing with the CB down. The knob on top of the CB is a bit of a taint-knocker for the rower.  

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This is a great thread and have read through it several times as I am planning my hardware purchases and locations now.  I think I have decided to go with Harken 240's for the main and a headbanger for the mizzen based on the information presented here.  I would love to see more photos of people's rigging, particularly the reefing lines and termination of these lines on the sprits.  

 

I have tested the rowing locations with the lower section of the mizzen in place, and seriously doubt I will do any rowing from the center thwart with the mizzen up.  That said, placing the main blocks one rump apart might make sense in the event the mizzen is in the forward hole (or going fly fishing).  This would also help in reaching the ends of the sheets from either tack, but might interfere with the napping platform!  Planning, planning, and more planning.  

 

Heading to the shed to epoxy and paint.  

 

David

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While I'm still a few "weeks" away from attaching hardware, I've already purchased most of my stuff (unfortunately).  So, I have four shiny new clamcleats waiting to be installed.  But my blocks will not be attached to the top of the rowing thwart.  They will be attached to the forward surface of the thwart with an eye strap and a lashing.  (I'm using Orbit 30 blocks, lashing version.)  When not in use, they will drop down and out of the way (for rowing).  We'll see how that shakes out in the real world, a few "weeks" from now.  David, as I rethink the headbanger idea, I'm not sure it will work well when on a run which puts the sprit (and headbanger) on the leeward side of the sail.  Mick, there's a diagram on the first page of this thread.  I agree that this is a very informative thread!

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This is the mizzen sheet rig I prefer.  The blocks should be of non swivel type to prevent twisting of the sheet.  A simple U strap to the rope traveler is adequate.  The down led sheet does not foul when the mast rotates, at least not enough to be a bother.  Both main and mizzen sheets are run to the same area on the thwart so they are always where you expect them to be and always in front of you, no matter where you are in the boat.

 

I don't think a head knocker on the sprit will work well since it will foul on the sail foot on one tack.  I have used headknockers on several larger boats with booms on the foot but don't think one is appropriate here.

 

Edited:

Just read Don's post.  If you like or need to row,  how about attaching you sheet blocks to a separate board that you can mount over the thwart with thumb screws.  When you want to row, which is never for me, you could remove it and drop it in a locker.  I carry a paddle for the times when there is a need to move the boat short distances in no wind or around docks.  I do have the PVC tubes in the forward bulkhead and a pair of oars but only use then in events like the Small Reach Regatta and my slave son is aboard to do the work.  Then he sits on the CB trunk and rows while trying to avoid busting his knuckles on the mizzen mast.  Works for me! :)

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Just to throw in my "2 cents worth", I like for my mizzen sheet to come through a block with becket mounted on the back end of my tiller and forward to a jam cleat just behind where I have my hand on the tiller. I find this very convenient and out of the way of crew members. I know that neither Graham nor Tom would agree, but it works for me. As an old sage used to say, "Different ships, different long splices."

 

The only pictures that I can find are with my mast lowered on my CS-20 Mk-2. Scroll down this page to the pictures. http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8080-cs20-mk2/page-3

 

 

There are pics of Tom's rig here:  http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8080-cs20-mk2/page-5 Between pages 3 and 5.

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The only difference between Tom's arrangement and mine is that instead of putting a block on the mast, I've got the block on the sprit boom. This does put some downward pull on the sprit, which may not be ideal in theory, but to be totally honest I doubt the difference is worth mentioning. One advantage of putting that block on the boom is you can keep mizzen sheet rigged during trailering and storage. Not having to reeve it every time you step or pull the mast saves a little time and hassle. 

I really don't like the headbanger idea for a the sheet. How are you supposed to release the cleat when the boom is on the leeward side of the sail?

I have the double ended main sheet set up as shown in the plans. For those contemplating other options for the main, don't. I think it works best as drawn. You really need to keep the main close at hand at all times, especially in gusty conditions. Having it always cleated on the windward rail is optimal. In a gust easing the main relieves heeling pressure and also moves the COE aft, turning the boat to windward which also reduces the heeling moment from the mizzen. I find it's much less critical to play the mizzen than it is the main. 

This forum seems to be create more posts about building than sailing. For those of you who have been sailing your CS 17-20s for a while, I'd be curious to know how much you actually use the center thwart rowing position. I have my suspicions...

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Yah, Mr Moon.  The downlead block on the boom probably works fine also and down pressure at this point is not an issue like it would be further aft.  I have had enough problems with clam cleats being hard to release in a hard chance and dislike them for sheet leads that are loaded.  The fact is though that we tend to like whatever we have found to suit our personal sailing style.  Fer instance, I also dislike having the sheet led to the tiller for several reasons but Chick likes that method for some unfathomable reason.  We need a little controversy, Chick.

Chick. 

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Looks like this is the way to go for rigging the mizzen.  I have a trick up my sleeve, to preserve the thwart for rowing.  We'll see how it all shakes out.  Otherwise, instead of a head-knocker, I'll have a ball-knocker!  LOL

 

Me and rowing go way back.  I'm the one with my hand on the oar.

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Dnjost said...

I would love to see more photos of people's rigging, particularly the reefing lines and termination of these lines on the sprits

I'll attach a few pics of my clew end reefing lines.

The main reefing line starts as a loop around the boom goes up to and is fed through a snapshackle at the reef point then goes down to a block at the clew, is led forward through an entry hole internally (aluminium sprit) to an internal turning block and then led aft to an exit hole and cleat about halfway along the sprit. This so I can tension the line when standing in the forward cockpit. The mizzen reefing line is the same except it is led forward to an exit hole and cleat at a convenient place for me to stand near the mizzen mast and reach halyard/downhaul/reefing line without having to move much. You can see the reefing line on the mizzen hanging down below the sail in photo 2...this shows the position quite well. The line in the cleat in photo 3 is actually the topping lift adjustment - the reefing line is similarly cleated but further forward.

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Here is a link to a short video of me demonstrating reefing the main on the water...you can see how I pull the reefing line on the spritboom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAwkd45H1uU

 

Cheers

Peter HK

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Sorry for the delay, but I finally found the photo I wanted.  Instead of a piece of PVC in the middle of the sprit, this is a little more elegant.  It is an eye strap and a nylon ring.  I did this on a Wayfarer refurb, and plan to do it on my mizzen.

post-3770-0-86024600-1430447808_thumb.jpg

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Sorry for the delay, but I finally found the photo I wanted.  Instead of a piece of PVC in the middle of the sprit, this is a little more elegant.  It is an eye strap and a nylon ring.  I did this on a Wayfarer refurb, and plan to do it on my mizzen.

Oh great, now I have to go find something in bronze to accomplish the same thing.  :P

 

I will be rigging my sheets almost if not identically to what Tom did.  Swivel cam cleats w/blocks in front of me is just way too convenient and easy to access quickly.  That and I am just way too used to it.  I tried the endless sheet system Graham suggests sailing Ken's South Bound at the 1st B&B Messabout and it drove me crazy.  I am sure I could learn to use it, but see no compelling reason to try.  Even though I have no desire to redesign the boat in any way I find the ability to tweak the features to suit my needs an important part of building it myself.

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The stock sheeting arrangement has some advantages over a centrally located block and cam cleat. It might be good to make sure you are aware of the advantages and disadvantages of both systems. Some of the disadvantages of the stock system have been brought up so I thought I would mention a couple of advantages of the stock system.

 

One of the advantages of the stock side deck system is that the sheet is always near at hand. If your sheet is cleated to the center of the boat it is possible for the sheet to fall out of reach should you let go of it for one reason or the other. Check your GPS, take a photo etc. If that is when you get hit by a gust of wind you may have to make an awkward reach to the center to grab the main sheet. The smaller your boat the less of a problem. 

 

With the stock side deck system you do not have to carry the sheet with you when you tack. This leaves your hands free to make adjustment as you move across the boat. Adjust the centerboard, tighten the mizzen downhaul move the tiller to your other hand. It is a busy time, nice to know your sheet will be waiting for you when you get there.

 

As has been said it is a matter of personal preference, so you might want to try them both out as Dave has or at least think through the advantages of both before you decide.

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I ended up rigging the mizzen just like Tom and Peter.  However, being the not thinking too well person that I am, I rigged it like Peters.  The only problem is that he has his sprit on the starboard side of the mast and mine is on the port.  So naturally, when I was panicked trying to get the boat done for Cedar Key our big event for small boats in Florida last weekend I mounted the block on the starboard side.  So I managed to sail the weekend with the sheet wrapped around forward of the mast and manually loosening it and tightening it.  It worked OK since the winds were fairly light on Saturday and Sunday.  Yesterday, I remounted the block and tomorrow will move the swiveling cleat on the thwart.

 

I hope you all will learn to plan ahead and think twice before mounting hardware.  In other words, learn from my mistakes.

 

I think I am going to like the new arrangement.

 

I also changed the main sheeting to two swiveling cleats and they worked very well.

 

dale

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