bil Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Could broken up styrofoam or what is called peanut packing contained in a waterproof bag, say a thick vinyl bag, work for permanent flotation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labrat Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 Bil, The topic of float bag alternatives has come up a few times. Here is one thread that may give you some relevant background. http://messing-about.com/forums/topic/8810-floatation/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 If you go this route consider that most "peanuts" today are corn starch, not plastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 I build and sell float bags, so I probably seem biased. But it is not about flotation, These boats tend to float even when flooded. The real purpose for flotation in a kayak is to minimize the amount of water inside a boat in a capsize and that means less water you have to get out. Water inside a kayak makes it VERY unstable and reentry much harder. Frankly, nothing does this better than an inflatable bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bil Posted April 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 Thanks for the info but no one answered my question. I understand that the purpose of a float bag is to reduce the volume of water that can get into the boat, there by making it easier to empty or re-enter. Float bags at $70-80 dollars is hard for me to swallow. What I purpose is a contractor's trash bag filled with pieces of styrofoam to fill the cavity bow and stern sealed up to make it water tight. It would only cost a few dollars to make. The thread on the pool noodles or ping pong balls talked about the space between the balls and the noodles allowing more water than a float bag but contained in a sealed bag would that would not be a problem. Frankly float bags can and will eventually leak plus the hassel of filling and deflating them each time. The bag sealed with something light weight to take up volume would be semi-permanent. Any comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 If you jam a bunch of foam into the ends of your kayak, it is extra weight in the wrong place you have to move, which is kind of missing the point. I have a set of homemade float bags that are almost 20 years old. They still work fine. Everything leaks. Remember the Titanic? So, if your float bag springs a leak, it's easy to remove and repair, because it went flat. When, not if, your other bag, the one full of foam, begins to leak, you either have a heavy bag of foam soup, or the corn starch breaks down and you have a bag of schmutz to lug around. Although, you did originally indicate a thick vinyl bag for flotation, then switched to a contractor's trash bag to simply take up volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bil Posted April 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 I had originally thought vinyl but contractors trash bags are 3mil thick and very strong and easily sealed with a heat strip. The styrofoam peanuts I mentioned was just a thought. I didn't know they made them out of corn starch. But I have two bags full of real styrofoam I have saved from packing of things I received like the bandsaw I ordered and electronics etc. They are very light and don't absorb water and cost nothing and I can always pull them out if necessary. Once sealed and in place their is very little chance of them leaking. I am 70 years old and paddle on a very shallow river. In the summer when I do most of my paddling it is anywhere to 6" to 10' deep. I have done wet exits and I can easily swim to a shallow spot in a few seconds. I am looking to go cheap. I am not sure I will like either of the SOF boats I have built. One is a 14' freebee from Kudzu plans. The other is a scaled down version of a Greenland that is15' I built from an Instructable instructions. I have two Hurricane Aqua thermoformed Kayaks I bought used one is a Santee 135 which weighs 43lbs after I replaced the original seat with a foam tractor style seat which Kudzu recommends and a back band. The other is a 16.5' Tracer which weighs 45 lbs after replacing it's seat. I love both boats but was fascinated by the SOF kayaks I saw on line but they are turning out to be way more expensive and time consuming to build than I had originally thought. Now I just want to finish skinning them an try them as cheaply as I can. I am not an elitist. My plastic boats are light, cheap, fast, and easy to care for and durable. I am not a craftsman I just want to paddle. I understand your love for the building process and trying to perfect the art. I wish I had started at an younger age. Think cheap! Again thanks for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 I feel like I'm being suckered, but... No trash bag is in it with the material float bags are made from. You asked for opinions and advice, got some, then told everyone they were wrong. A trash bag stuffed into a kayak frame IS going to tear, especially if it's crammed full of odd shaped bits. Cheap and boatbuilding are incompatible. If you want cheap, buy a boat. A major part of building a boat is the enjoyment of building the boat. Building a boat always costs more and takes longer than you think, unless you're real good. I don't think anybody went all fine crafstman on you, either. I like to do good work, in all parts of my life, but I am po' Jack, and I got three kids. Cheap is my lifestyle. That said, I'd rather scrimp and save a bit than do something wrong just because it costs less... Also, Greenland is a big place, and lots of boat styles developed there, in lots of shapes. Almost all of the Arctic kayaks were built to size, too, by the by, fit to each individual, and suited to each unique purpose. My favorites are the types with the exaggerated fins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bil Posted April 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Sorry I didn't mean to offend. I thought I was not explaining myself well. The Greenland is styled after a West Greenland style I saw on a Greenland traditional site. Here is a picture attached. Thanks again for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 No offense taken. That frame is pretty. How long is it? That midsection looks tipply to my eye. And DO NOT stuff any foam in that thing. It will die of shame, cheap or no. I've built ten boats in the West Greenland style, but all were purpose built for specific individuals. Myself being most of those individuals... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labrat Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Bil, if you want cheap then I suggest that given the type of water you paddle on you should go for zero cost and zero effort. I only put float bags in my Curlew because I expect to use it on some widish inland waters and also on the sea. From your description if I were in your position I would not add anything. Apart from initial cost/effort this will make cleaning and drying the interior easy each time you use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 I don't have anything in my FreeB, but she is pretty much a pond boat. This is a seriously fun boat. If you catch a big fish, you can take a Nantucket sleigh ride... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bil Posted April 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 I finally got around to taking frog pictures. Almost ready to skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labrat Posted April 16, 2015 Report Share Posted April 16, 2015 Well you sure have been busy - they are looking good. I don't know how much you've read up on design but one thing to be aware of is that strange things can happen to stability when scaling down. Your scaled down boat looks to have reasonably fine ends and you may find it is very unstable compared to the original size. Of course it may be OK as well - you won't know for certain until you put it in the water. I hope it will turn out OK for you but if not then it could still be good for a small adult or child. Looking forward to seeing them skinned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bil Posted April 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 You may be right, it probably will be tippy. I mostly scaled down the length. I kept the center of gravity and the seat location as per the plans. This is a Wolfgang Brinick design and I wrote him and he said as long as I kept those things the same it would not adversely affect the handling. But these boats are tippy anyway. The other boat is Jeff's freebee 14" design and I stuck to the plans so that boat will probably be fine. I had 14' western red cedar left over from the freebee that is why I scaled it down. The original plans for the Greenland style boat called for 16' gunwales, stringers and keelson. The extra foot of length for the 17' and my 15' came from the stem and stern boards. On Jeff's design I must have installed the stem and stern boards wrong so the stringers and gunwales met in the middle of the stem boards and it ended 15' but I didn't realize it until I had them lashed and decided to leave them that way. I don't think the extra 6" at each should affect it. I am sure it will float I just hope it will be right side up. If not it will be a nice wall ornament. Thanks for the comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Kayaks are boats, so are, by nature, compromises. Wear a tight skirt, preferably with a chest cinch, because you may go over in the Greenland style boat, but if you know what's up, you'll come right back over. I sustained a serious spine injury a few years ago that prevents me from being flexible enough to roll effectively, but I used to love it. Wear goggles, and just hang out upside down. I practiced in my grandma's pool. She's a saint. The FreeB you can take a nap in. I have. Twice. I don't want to paddle her very far, but I will paddle her all day, you know. Have fun. They both look nicely made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccawheeler Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I need some help/directions with how to insert the float bags from Kudzu. I purchased a set, but there are no instructions, and I don't see how to get them to fill the length of the bow and the length of the stern. How to get into place? thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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