Don Silsbe Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 How long should I make the sheets on my cat ketch rig? (Bay River Skiff 15) long enough to allow the main & mizzen to go forward of square to the centerline of the boat? If so, how far? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Ludwig Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 It is good to allow them to go farther than square. When sailing "wing and wing"down wind at an angle, you can set them to be "square" to the wind direction. You can also set them to both forward to spill some air from the leeches to help the boat to self-steer. Kinda like dihedral on airplanes. At least I have found it to help. I'm sure that others will "chime in" on this. The old timers used to let both sprits swing around towards the bow and drift downwind as they pulled their oyster tongs around the stern. That's why many of the old working sharpies had round sterns. The more you sail a cat-ketch, the more you'll come to appreciate the rig. Here is an excerpt from the following article: "Reaching & Running: Since the sprit bisects the sail load, the area above and below the sprit are balanced. So when the sheets are eased, the sails go out and stay out with none of the collapsing and filling that is the bane of the normal jib behind main. Nor is there the twisting off of the typical mainsail, when the boom lifts and causes a "death roll" in strong winds. Somewhere between a very broad reach and a run, the main sail will begin to shake and lose power. This is not a problem, just turn off the wind a bit further, jibe the main across and return to your desired course. As you have already learned, jibing, the bane of most downwind sail-handlers is a snap. With a cat ketch rig you can also sail directly down wind, wing and wing. The boat feels stable and whisks along nicely. If the wind gets up and things get hairy, on an unstayed rig (which includes most smaller cat ketches) you can just let those sails go forward of the beam. This will immediately stabilize the boat. Also, the sails when they are allowed to go forward (about 20° ), will keep the boat tracking downwind, so it makes a very easy time of what would be the most delicate conditions for a sloop or cat rigged boat. Taken to it's extreme, you can make delicate and gentle downwind landings in any weather by just letting the sheets go and allowing your sails fly forward completely, at the same time lifting your centerboard and letting go of the rudder pennant to lift the rudder…you glide into your (shallow) landing under complete control. This is a far cry from the usual tension and chaos of a downwind landing on a blustery day." This is from this article from the Band B website: http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/catketch.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 FYI......On my 11N, I snapped my beautiful boom because I didn't put a stopper knot in the sheet. Luckily the boom tapers and snapped before damage was done anywhere else. I don't know if your masts rotate, but if they don't, don't do what I did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Ludwig Posted February 24, 2015 Report Share Posted February 24, 2015 With the sprit rig, even if the masts don't rotate, the snotters will allow the sprit to swing all the way to the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Silsbe Posted February 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I thought so, guys. something that Graham said or wrote about sailing in a blow, and spilling off excess power (wind) lead me to that suspicion. Here's a question-- is that 20 degrees off the beam or the bow? Reason I'm asking, so early in my build, is that West Marine sent me a discount certificate. I'd like to buy some fancy rope for my sheets using that discount, and I want to make sure that I buy enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LennieG Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I bought all my lines and hardware from Graham, and it was a deal, plus you got everything organized by section and length and it was very handy. You may want to look into that and then use the West Marine discount for some of the other stuff that you will need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Buy a piece way too long. Use it for a while and mark the maximum lengths you think you need with tape or such while sailing. When you are confident you have found the right length, cut it and use the cut-off as a painter or dock line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Silsbe Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 LennieG, I am a "thrifty splurger". There are a few things that I am splurging on. One is using high- tech sheets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Silsbe Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Am I correct in assuming that the "forward 20 degrees" is forward of a line perpendicular to the keel? I want to get it right. For sure, I'll add some length, but even the cheap stuff isn't cheap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Potts Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 I would plan for enough line to allow the sails to go all the way forward (parallel to the keel) as mentioned in the last paragraph of Chick's quote. I found it quite useful to have my sheets that long. If you have trouble paying for the high tech stuff in that length you might consider using the high tech stuff for snotters and halyards and saving money on the sheets. Sheets are often much larger diameter than they need to be so they will be comfortable to handle - This makes them quite a bit stronger than they need to be so a lower-strength (less costly), but comfortable kind of rope can be used. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Niemann Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 While we are on sheets. Has anyone considered or used unending sheets on a CS? One problem with sheeting on each side is that you must be careful to keep the sheet tails about equal so you will always have some to let out in an emergency. I have been thinging about an unending loop to solve this problem. Any opinions out there? dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anderson Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Ken has a good point about the sheets. If you insist on getting Hi Tech sheets make sure they are Hi Tech for a dinghy. Hi Tech for a racing sloop with winches is not what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Silsbe Posted February 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 I'm looking at New England's Buzz Line, which is specifically for dinghy sheets. 7mm. It is soft, and it is single braid. This will make it a breeze (pun intended) for splicing into a continuous loop. (Great idea!) I'm going with the smaller diameter line because of my experience with a Wayfarer. They use 1/4" line for all the sheets, to lessen the effect of sheet weight in light air. And we get a lot of that in these parts. The softness will make up for the small diameter. And "all the way forward" it is. Thanks, guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Potts Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I love the continuous loop idea, Dale! The Stewarts came close to it on Dawn Patrol for a while. They had one long length of line that ran from one side of the main to the other then back to the mizzen. They had two double-ended sheets with only one piece of rope. I wonder why my current boat doesn't have port and starboard jib sheets all in one piece... Hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Silsbe Posted February 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I've been thinking on the continuous sheet concept. Depending on hardware, the sheets would have to remain on the boat all the time. That is assuming that you would be end splicing the rope. Otherwise, you'd have at least one pesky knot, or all your blocks and fairleads would have to be removeable. For l my boats, I stowed the sheets when not in use-- except for the Catalina 27. The alternative would be to attach the sheet ends at the clew using a fisherman's knot or two bowlines. But in doing so, you'd lose some mechanical advantage. How much purchase is needed on these boats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Potts Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 You could try fastening all the blocks with pelican hooks or snap shackles so the whole arrangement detaches easily. Don't worry too much about mechanical advantage on this size boat. If the sheet is sized to be comfortable in your hand you'll find that (at least in gusty weather) you end up holding the main sheet in your hand rather than cleating it off (no need for any winches on either sheet). The sheeting arrangement Graham drew almost certainly takes this all into account (please take my last statement with a grain of salt since I haven't actually seen the BRS drawings, just the drawings for the CS17 and the EC22). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dnjost Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 My last purchase of sheets for a small dinghy featured a soft braid (New England Ropes) that also floated! It was quite helpful on this dinghy from keeping the stern sheeted main from inadvertently wrapping itself around the rudder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Silsbe Posted February 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 The Bay River Skiff is a simpler version of the Core Sound series. No butterfly assembly at the bow-- that came later. So, there is a flatter entry at the bow. No side decks, so running snotters and downhauls aft is done less often. Otherwise, the rig is practically identical to the CS. Many of my blocks will be attached with soft shacles made of Dyneema. They're cheap and easy, just like the girls I used to date. (Or wanted to...) but there is those darned fairleads that prevent it from becoming detachable. Can't wait to get this pile of lumber floating, so I can experiment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Silsbe Posted February 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Here's a photo of someone else's BRS15, so you can see the differences and similarities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Ludwig Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Here is a comparison between the CS-17 and the BRS-17. It should outline the similarities and differences. http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/17-17.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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