Sobrevida Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Forgive me for asking, but it seems the options most people use to attach stringers are either lashing or epoxy and screws. Has anyone tried just using stainless steel deck screws without epoxy? I was thinking of trying 3/4" plywood for the frames, then being very careful with drilling and screwing. But before I try this, has anyone else? Stories or advice? Thanks so much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.D. Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Let me preface this by saying that I have not yet built a fuselage style kayak. I do have lots of woodworking experience though. Drilling a hole and putting a screw in the already very thin framing members, will weeken them significantly. Lashing does not affect the integrity of the wood. Lashing also allows a permanent flexability that won't deteroirate the wood too much over time (screw holes get looser and looser with flexing) Because the skin of the kayak tends to hold the frame together, you probably wouldn't have any problems for a while. But, lashing will tend to keep the frames from cracking and make your kayak last much longer. Glue of any kind will eventually crack because of the flexibility of the overall design. So, there's not much point in using epoxy. This is just my opinion of course. Hopefully, experienced buildiers will chime in and add to this or correct me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 What he said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DURRETTD Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Always the contrarian, I prefer epoxy with stainless screws. I dislike epoxy, but it works and lasts well. I'm not that big a fan of a flexible frame and the epoxy with screws produces a very rigid structure that hold its shape very well. I've heard the flexible frame will resist damage, but my boat survived without damage when it fell off a rack and landed on an air conditioner; the boat was unscathed, but the A/C didn't. Your boat, your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I would never put a structural screw into the edge of a piece of plywood. That's like screwing into the end grain of a natural board. If you are building a Kudzu boat, I wouldn't stray too far from the designer's specs, the methods are clearly tested and succesful. Otherwise, do whatever the designer says, especially if the designer is you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobartian Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 I have just finished the frame of a fuselage style Disko Bay kayak. I was surprised how many minor adjustments are needed to be made to complete a kayak that is straight and true. Altering things is so easy with a lashed joint and the frame and stringers are not damaged in any way. Whereas a glued and screwed joint would difficult to pull apart and the integrity of the timber has been compromised. Lashing is so easy once you have done a few joints and I actually learnt to enjoy the process. Lashing is the way to go and any future repairs will be so easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisian Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 What about cable ties, I think you guys call them zip ties. They would work, but not look so pretty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 It's hard to pull them tight enough. I have looked at using them in a kids boat. One where it was built cheap and didn't expect a long life. The goal was to let young kids build a small their own canoe in 3-4 day class.Cable ties would allow for quick assembly. I can't see young kids lashing for 3 days! But playing the cable ties I was not impressed and wouldn't want them on a serious boat. Can not pull them tight like you can sinew. Always have play in the joints. It would be OK on the kids boats assuming they would never be out on big water and rough conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Tiger Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 There is a tool made for bicycle repair called a fourth hand. It is made to hold a brake cable, while closing the caliper so you can adjust the brake's tension. They are also stellar at pulling tension on zip ties...pull till the break! Zip ties would still be iffy though, because there is no frapping to really snug them down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrown Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 I have a number of skin on frame boats. The oldest of these is a Percy Blandford design that I built 35 years ago, and another PB design that I purchased from someone which was built about 45 years ago. They ( and all of my other SOF boats) are screwed and glued. I have re-skinned these two oldest ones this past year and had a good chance to look at the frame structure. They were both in great shape and showed no signs of cracking or undue wear and tear and I re-skinned them confident that they will provide several more decades of similar use. The oldest boat 's frame is varnished throughout, the next oldest is epoxy encapsulated throughout ( an early generation product called chem tech t88) and my other boats are epoxy encapsulated. For those of you wondering if screw and glue is acceptable I offer this only to show that I am having good results this way. I am not finding it difficult to build straight frame structures this way. For the "glue" I would use epoxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 What plywood are you using? 35 year old plywood is a better product than what you typically get now. Unless you are buying the good imported plywood, what I have seen won't hold a screw. A screw will often wedge the plys apart. But if you are gluing the joints, the screw is no longer doing much if anything structurally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrown Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I thought of including this in my original post but left it out in order to be brief. The 35 year old boat in question has some plywood bulkheads and stems, but is largely constructed using bent ribs. The 45 year old boat was built from a kit produced in England and then shipped to Canada for assembly. Yes the plywood seems different than your usual big box store grade. This construction also uses a number of ribs instead of cross frames. These 45 year old ribs are quite interesting. They are made up of 5-7 layers of wood and look almost like plywood that has been steam bent or formed during construction into a curve. So when you screw into it you don't separate the layers, you screw through them. My own ribs are composed of 1 and at the most so far, 2 , layers of wood. I have questioned the structural usefulness of the screws in the past and decided I was pretty much using them to hold the stringers in place until the epoxy cured. So about 10 years ago I started leaving the screws out and just epoxying the stringers in place using clamps. My oldest boat using this technique is 10 years old now and holding up just great with no problems. So to sum up.... I am not trying to talk anybody out of lashing, I may make a boat this way someday, it is just not my first choice right now. I build my boats using marine plywood for stems and sterns and some cross frames and also steam bend ash or fir for many of the ribs. I epoxy encapsulate the frame. I am not trying to say this is the best or only way to do things, it is just a system that appeals to me and has worked well in my experience in craft up to 45 years of age. There are many reasons for not going this route. (I would assume perhaps cost, also if you only have say, 3 ply plywood that can't be edge screwed, although epoxy alone might work here, etc) I offer my experiences only for those debating doing the same thing as me. Allan Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 I'm in NZ, and completing an Italian design with marine ply frames like Sobrevida above is talking about, and it calls for stringers and frames to be glued and screwed. The screws are thin 6g stainless steel, and don't appear to hurt the frames, however in my opinion if you do this you must glue the joins also, because the screws alone do not provide sufficient strength. After being glued the joints are very strong and do not appear to show any weakness. I worried about weakening of the stringers drilling a hole for the screws, but because the screws are relatively very narrow, they have caused any problems. In another Kayak, I have lashed joints, and agree, the Netsilik Eskimo substantially lashed their kayaks, and this gave them incredible strength and flexibility. ultimately, I think it's a balance, in that lashing is the ultimate method, and glue and screw just to cut the construction time down but potentially not as strong in extreme sea conditions. Thanks and all the best with your projects. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 As has been said before, this is just a bad idea. Putting screws into the edges of the plywood is the weakest way to attach anything to the plywood. The constant flex of the frame is going to trying to pry those apar and if used enough it will damage the plywood. That is why we never suggest this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 I don't think I would trust even epoxy gluing these joints. With all of the twisting the joints deal with even epoxy would crack and come apart. I wouldn't ever dream of using screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 9 hours ago, Kudzu said: As has been said before, this is just a bad idea. Putting screws into the edges of the plywood is the weakest way to attach anything to the plywood. The constant flex of the frame is going to trying to pry those apar and if used enough it will damage the plywood. That is why we never suggest this. Agree with you Jeff and Dave, I'm just following instructions on the [Italian] plans, and expect in rough sea conditions where there are massive strains on the frame, that joints could pop - epoxy crack and screws exit. I'll test it out and let you know, but already plan for the next one to be all lashed. Perhaps in Italy the water is flat, but in NZ we get some extremely wild seas when Southerlies blow swells from Antarctica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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