Aimless Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I've been reading different threads about Baltic Birch. Finding a supplier seems hard. This supplier is local to me, and only about 20 miles away. However, I'm not sure if its the right stuff since they don't say what glue is used. The guy on the phone said he hadn't heard of exterior grade baltic birch. So I'm thinking maybe he just doesn't know what glue is used. I'm reluctant to buy it because the price seems low compared to what I've seen in other posts. Description from website: BIRCH - RUSSIAN/BALTIC12mm (1/2")1,525mm x 1,525mm (60" x 60") BB/BB - 9 PLY VENEER CORE Link: http://www.plywoodcompany.com/application/home/itemdetails.aspx?categoryid=117&itemid=237 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 All Baltic Birch is sold as a cabinet grade or furniture plywood. But I have yet to know of any plywood to have a glue that isn't waterproof. Yes, we are using a material that is not really manufactured for our intended use. But because our kayaks are not stored in the water, even over night it stands up very well. And because i has 9 thin and uniform plys it is very strong and stable. That looks like the right stuff. And the price is fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aimless Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Thanks for the quick reply. I'll grab this stuff this weekend. Maybe two since it's half what I was expecting to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickman Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 yes sir. It is comes in a 5 by 5 sheet. high quality stuff. Terrill Stehling, 817-831-4206 is the salesman that i went through when i picked up my ply. It's right off 35E north at exit 56-A. I think it was less than 30 bucks a sheet. One whole boat easily out of on sheet. I see you are in Mansfield, I can give you a sample piece of scrap of birch ply. I'm at Walnut Creek and Country Club and can meet ya anywhere close. I still have the strong-back if you are in need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickman Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 and no. they are not open on the weekends. Industrial park area.............9-5 mon -fri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aimless Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Pickman, I'd love to make a good use of your strongback. I'd sent you a PM earlier in the day about materials since one of the first things I did was search for "Texas" to see if anyone had inquired about suppliers. I saw a thread where you mentioned Mansfield. I don't need a sample, I'll go with the collective wisdom and grab the plywood on Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickman Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Sorry, i was on the road most of the day. Text me with the word 'Strong-back' and I will call you back in short order. visit Arlingtonpools.com , that is me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsim Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Great prices. I noticed 12mm okume and meranti were less than $30 for a 4x8' sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Great prices. I noticed 12mm okume and meranti were less than $30 for a 4x8' sheet. It seems like great prices, but consider that Okoume is merely the genus of the wood used. That stuff is not even marine, never mind BS 1088. Note also the following quote from the description of that plywood: "Okoume plywood is used in the United States only in the form of veneer, which obviates the difficulties that may be encountered in seasoning and machining in the solid form. Okoume is pink in color on the face and back. Face veneers are usually Rotary Cut, Whole Piece Face. The core is a Chinese Poplar that typically has more layers than other imports. For instance, an 18mm panel will have 13 plys versus a 7 or 9 ply product from other countries. Having a Poplar core makes this product less stable than a tropical hardwood core." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaxton Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 If you are near a Menards I found this is what they have available for russian BB ply: http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plywood/1-2-x-4-x-8-baltic-birch-plywood/p-1479673-c-5698.htm $54.99 for a 4' x 8' sheet, looks like the right stuff. I have not checked if it was in stock at a store near me, most likely a special order though, but free shipping to the store Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Based on the posts of several forum members it seems there are different grades of Baltic Birch plywood. The differences are mostly in the surface veneers. These differences would have a some what significant impact if one were building cabinets, but for kayak frames I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. The key specification we should be looking for is the integrity and number of core veneers. BB has thicker face veneers than US made Birch veneer cabinet plywood. The advantage to this is you can sand harder without breaking through the veneer and ruining the surface. The key for us is 9 total veneers with few knots and no voids. Exterior glue is needed as well, but I have yet to find a plywood that does not use this. The following is from the technical specs PDF. attached to the link above: DETAIL: DESCRIPTION: 1/2” (12mm) BB/CP Russian Birch THICKNESS: 1/2” Nominal Size (12mm) with a .4mm tolerance FACE VENEERS: BB Grade WPF White Birch with a 1.4mm face veneer thickness, One-piece face generally light and even in color, 5-6 small color matched wood patches, 3-4 small tight knots, small mineral streaks, surface is sanded CP Grade WPF White Birch Back with a 1.4mm Back veneer thickness, Unlimited wood patches and sound knots, no open defects, surface is sanded CORE: 7 - Ply Machine Composed, with calibrated core (9-ply total) GLUE: Exterior Phenolic Resin, Type 1, Carb Exempt This stuff meets all the requirements we look for. Again, it is not BS 1088 marine, it is not the best for our application. It does however work very well for kayaks that are not left wet all the time, and stands up when left outside better than anyone has a right to expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchmellow Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 In addition, not all Baltic birch uses Type 1 phenolic waterproof glue. I have found examples on the internet that specify Type 2 formaldehyde water resistant glue. Type 1, as in the Menards example, would be preferable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchmellow Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Also, in looking at a few websites for Baltic birch specs I find that often the 5 x5 sheets use Type 2 urea formaldehyde glue ( water resistant but still sometimes called exterior as in domestic exterior plywoods) while the 4 x 8 sheets use Type 1 phenolic glue (described as waterproof). However, this is not totally consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Mitch, interesting point about the designations of water proof and water resistant glues. That you find the descriptions and specs inconsistent is nothing new in the plywood industry. Considering the track record of how people use words in the English language I would need more evidence to conclude anything from this. Do you have any standard that you can link to that differentiates between the 2? Or quantifies exactly what either of them really mean? Exterior sheathing made for the building industry must be able to stand up to the weather for 6 months exposed. Even this does not really tell you whether a glue is water proof or water resistant. This is part of the reason that for wooden boats so many of us, particularly us who post in the B&B section of this forum require BS 1088 or BS 6566 plywood. We know exactly what it means. There is a list of characteristic it must meet to be graded as such. The experience of us who build SOF kayaks has found that most real Baltic Birch plywoods work fine for this application. But since this is not the intended use, nor is it manufactured for use building boats, we assume some risk every time we use it. So if some one is looking for a guarantee, then Baltic Birch is not the answer. Caveat emptor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchmellow Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Type 1 and 2 adhesives are ANSI/HPVA designations. Type 1 is very resistant to moisture. Marine plywood is always Type 1 adhesive. See a description of the tests at this site: http://www.experts123.com/q/what-is-the-difference-between-the-ansi-hpva-type-i-and-type-ii-water-resistance-specification.html . Here is a description of many of the adhesives: http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-154.pdf . Although Baltic birch made with type 2 adhesive is structurally stronger than domestic plywood, it's adhesive is not as water resistant/proof as marine plywood or Baltic birch made with type 1 adhesives. As you said, caveat emptor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaxton Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 So, i went to menards and found out that it is special order, but they had four sheets in stock that somebody ordered but never picked up, real nice looking outer face on both sides and tight plys. will be picking a sheet up tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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