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CS17 mk3 and CS20 mk3


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Thanks for the reply Doug. Comfortable sitting headroom is great, I have tried to sit back in deep draught 20' gaffer and I was impossible to sit back onto the seat back, my head hit the doghouse side and deck edge, really uncomfortable. Great result.

How does the open hatch area seal up in bad weather or when leaving the boat? Sliding concertina canvas? Ply hatches?

Brian

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  • 3 weeks later...

Dale,

 

Doug told me that he wanted enjoy the build. When he realized that he would not have time to complete his mk3 without a mega marathon and a lot of stress, he decided to back off and take his mk1 to the EC.

 

His goal is to take her to Ceder Key in May so you will still get a chance to see her. 

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Hello, I am new to the forum.  I am looking for a boat to build in the spring.

 

I have owned and sailed smaller O'days and Hunters.  I would like to try my hand at a build for the pride and enjoyment.  I get guffaws' from my family, and in particular my son-in-law.  Now I'm also pissed off.

 

After much searching I came to the idea that the Belhaven19 would be my best bet for several reasons. My short list of wants is ; Easily single handed, trailered, launched and retrieved; Room to sleep for a weekend with some head room; Suitable and safe with the grandchildren; Good for first time build; Shallow draft; Good looks.

 

The Belhaven stood out.  A phone conversation with Carla confirmed my idea.  All was well.  Then I came across the thread on the new CS20MKIII and I am rethinking my decision. Maybe this forum can offer some help.

 

In general what are your thoughts comparing these two boats?  They are about the same length, but the Belhaven is may 18" beamier? Are there figures for the MKIII?  Head room on Belhaven is 4'9', again are there figures for MKIII?  The water ballast probably makes the MKIII easier to single hand,  and only it is self-bailing I believe. 

 

I'm wondering when plans and/or kits may become available? 

 

Thanks for any input. I must silence my son-in-law.  Please help! 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm very excited about the CS20 mk3. I have a Caledonia Yawl which I love, but I want a small cabin like the Skiff America 20, which I also have. When I built the SA20 there were choices to be made about how the cabin top would be designed. I went with the suggested pvc framework with snap-on cover, which has worked very well. The walk-thru feature is awesome, in good weather, but it takes a couple minutes to assemble/snap or the reverse. If I need to get to the bow quickly, and the cover is on, I duck under and squeeze thru the forward hatch/bulkhead. In the CS20 mk3 there is no forward hatch. Not sure if you can stand on the bridge deck and reach forward to the forward snaps. If not, getting forward quickly will require devising a system for unsnapping those forward snaps from inside. Which may not be easy. Bottom line, you can't walk or crawl on this sort of deck without risking deck and limb, so there has to be a fool-proof nearly instant way to get forward to deploy anchor, dock line, bow line, mainsail line issues, fend off, etc. And you don't want it to leak. So the SA20 option is a good concept, but the devil will be in the forward details. If the cabin top is short enough so you can just reach over and unsnap the forward snaps, of course no problem. My SA20 slot is over 7' long, I can only reach half way.

I bought Princess plans many years ago, but was a bit overwhelmed by the scope of the project and the size of the boat. Then I got a great deal on the Caledonia, professionally built by my neighbor Geoff Kerr, and have sailed her all over. But I love sleeping on the SA20, and I want a sailboat that will have provide about the same accommodations (2 berths, dry storage, portapotti storage). With the kit feature I feel the CS20 mk3 makes this a real possibility for someone with my limited building background. FWIW I sailed with Greg Luckett on his CS20 a few years ago at the Small Reach Regatta (met Graham and Tom Lathrop (bought BJ27.5 plans from Tom too) but didn't get to sail on the EC20 they brought. No doubt the CS20's can sail. Not a huge fan of the CS20 looks, being a bit of a classic look snob, but I actually think the mk3 looks good, kind of a Stonehorse profile. In any event, pretty is as pretty does, and I look forward to the next installments of the mk3 construction. When the prototype has sailed and been lauded and critiqued and tweaked, and kits are generally available, I suspect you'll see a Caledonia for sale in Vermont, and the barn being cleared out for another boat project.

If you need info about the SA20 slot and cover, I can provide info and maybe photos, if I can figure out how to upload them, or offline.

Joel

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Hi Newbie,

 

They are quite different boats even though they are similar in many ways. Even though the Belhaven is shorter by a foot, it is taller, wider and heavier. I have sat in the mk3 and while I think that the room is amazing for a dinghy, it is still a dinghy. The Belhaven is a proper little yacht. To get sitting headroom in the mk3, the bunks are set real low. The Belhaven cabin is about 20" longer which means that the mk3's cockpit is a lot longer. The BH cockpit was designed to be slept in at 6'6". I do not think that Scott could have done his Florida trip with his family in a mk3 with all the stuff that he took. The room in the Belhaven is amazing.

 

The Belhaven feels quite sturdy and steady under sail compared to the mk1 but the water ballast really changed the feel of the mk2 and the mk3 should feel the same.

 

I am more of a minimalist and I hope that the CS17 mk3 will be my next boat, mainly because I can tow it with a compact car and it is plenty seaworthy. I expect to get around 32- 35 mpg on the highway pulling it with my VW Golf TDI.

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Hi Joel,

 

You make some good points. The slot on the CS20 mk3 is 5'10" long but the snaps would be about 6' forward, which as you said is a bit too long to reach in a hurry. I was planning on small toe rails and something to grab onto for those quick trips forward. Doug and I discussed that when we put the hull together.

 

Doug has had a good look at how the SA20 hatch is done but we may consult you if we have any concerns. 

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Thanks for the information, it helps allot.

 

From what you said I think my choice of the Belhaven19 is the best for my needs.

 

I have questions; How do find out what can be purchased as a kit?  Should I call?  Can I purchase some level of beginning parts without needing to pay for a whole kit at one time? 

 

Thanks

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Greg,

 

We have not created a kit yet for the Belhaven but we intend to. Seeing that you are in NC, there would be no problem in picking up the kit in installments. I am finishing up the mk3 kits right now and I have a couple of other projects to complete before I can jump into a new assignment.   

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Great...I would pick up items as available.  I would think my GMC Sierra is big enough.

 

To begin the process I will go ahead and order plans for the boat. That way I can do some preliminary steps like building a cradle and getting the supplies suggested for the build.

 

So, I wonder what approximate time frame a partial kit it might be?  Would you anticipate some of the kit might be ready in two months or so?  I'm trying to see what planning I can make here. 

 

If it will be delayed for some time I may just forge ahead and see what I am capable of on my own <_<. It should be entertaining to watch!  I will endeavor to document with photos.

 

Thanks Again,

Greg  

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Just finished the Everglades Challenge in the Core Sound 20 Mark I. It took great care of me. More on that later.

On the slot - I came down here a day early to talk with the crew at Island Nautical (the old JSI). They have a lot of experience with projects like this. We talked about arched battens sewn into Sunbrella attached to cars on parallel tracks. The material could accordion in between. The forward part would be in an awning track. I'm awaiting a drawing and have to run this by Graham.

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Doug, congratulations on finishing the EC. I watched the EC13 video last night, and was exhausted just watching and imagining! What a great experience that must be!

On the slot - cars and tracks sounds slick, like an old Renault I had with a huge fabric sunroof. Can't remember how it kept the water out, but it never leaked a drop. One of the great things about these boats is how they encourage/require individual problem-solving, so each boat comes out as the unique reflection of it's builders creative energies. I imagine the first few boats will have variations, and over time certain solutions will become preferred. Like Graham I tend towards the minimalist/KISS approach, (how does water ballast fit into that?). The slot is a great KISS contradiction: on the one hand it seems like a simple way of greatly expanding the sense of space in a small cabin, enabling access to the bow, gaining headroom. On the other had, the details of building the enclosure may be a lot more complicated, or at least busy, than a traditional hatch.

On a different subject, Chick mentioned that he had the "big" sails, which I assume means big roach, full upper battens. The CS20 I sailed, and most that I have seen pictured, did not have the big sails. I have not seen the sail plan options mentioned in the specs or the forums. Have you decided which to go with, and if so, what are the pro's/cons?

Joel

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With the "big" sails, you have better light air performance. You would have to reef earlier. If you want to keep the sails in a sail bag, the battens are aggravating to remove. I got "sausage bags" which are long bags that the sail goes into without removing the battens. I stored my sails in the bags in the cabin when I was trailering the boat, but there is no room left in the cabin for people! When actually cruising, I leave the sails on, so that is not a problem. Where I sailed, it seemed like there were a lot of days without much wind, so I really liked the extra sail area. 

 

Be sure to have your reefing system worked out, and practice before you really need it! Have your reefing lines rigged from the start of your sail, so all you have to do is "pull the strings" when the wind picks up, rather than having to crawl around the deck doing it at the last minute. A cat-ketch is really easy to control while you are reefing. I usually waited until it was really too late, but still had no major problems. (But do as I say, not as I do---reef early.)

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Chick, thanks for the explanation about the "big" sails. I just re-read the Small Boats article on the CS, and looking closely at the sail plan diagram I noticed a tracing for "roach sail". I assume that is the "big" sail, using the battens to achieve roach. I have searched the B&B site, and this forum, for a thread that details how you "jiffy reef" a sprit rig, and I'm not finding much. On the CS20 mk3, where getting forward to the main mast may be awkward unless you open the slot (thus exposing the interior to rain/spray), having an efficient reefing system that you can operate from the cockpit seems especially important. Is that feasible? Do you have to loosen the snotter as well? That appears to be quite high up the main mast, how are adjustments made without getting up into the bow? On your mk2 you installed a clever arch on the cabin top with most of the mast line controls led thru. That wouldn't work so well on a cabin top with a slot running all the way forward, but clever minds can always figure out ways to make these systems work. I'm a big fan of reefing, one thing I love about my Caledonia Yawl is how the mizzen holds her head to wind so that you can reef that big lugsail before things get ugly. I have her set up so reefing is a cinch. She sails much better with one or two reefs, than when you have to pinch, hike and luff the main in gusts. A good reefing system is a thing of beauty indeed, not to mention an important safety feature! So give me lots of sail area, a seaworthy hull, and a good reefing system, and we have the best of all worlds.

Joel

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Mike,

 

Yes we definitely have a CS17 mk3 kit. In fact the mk3 started as a 17. I liked it so much that when I got further inquiries for the 20 mk2 I decided to scrap it and redraw it as a mk3.

 

We have the basic plywood about 75% cut as I work on developing the instructions and plans.

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Joel,

 

It is not hard to bring the control lines to the cockpit. We always bring the snotter back because that is our draft control. You are right about the importance of reefing and the ability to heave-to with the mizzen sheeted in tight. These boats will just park when hove-to at about 60% to the wind. I have tried over and over to park sloops with dinghy style hulls with only momentary success, they will always take off before you can get anything done.  

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