CS17 #370 Peggy-O

[Don Silsbe]

MAS recommends a sealer coat or two of epoxy beneath your brightwork. When I've done that, I've gotten a very fine, smooth finish. Comments?

[PAR]

It's funny how epoxy formulators recommend goo under varnish and clear coats, but professional restorers and others with lots of experience, suggest this isn't the best route, if maintenance is you're primary concern. Simply put, it's a whole lot harder to repair and maintain a bright finish, if it has epoxy under it, not to mention a fair bit more costly and requires more effort, to get a good finish, compared to a simply varnishing the wood in the first place. There are some places I usually do employ epoxy under varnish, like transoms or splash rails on powerboats, but generally it's only to improve moisture ingress prevention, in vulnerable areas. A few coats of epoxy on raw wood, before over coating with varnish or polyurethane, isn't going to make the surface noticeably more durable, so the only advantage is moisture proofing. Now, if you use a light cloth, then yes, you don't have a choice and epoxy is the ticket, but now the surface is going to be more durable, from the cloth.

[LennieG]

I put three coats of epoxy per Graham's recommendation, and I had to sand between each coat because I had out gassing. Even tho the outside temp was decreasing, my tin box storage hadn't gotten the word. Grahams intent was the same as Paul said.......for waterproofing. Graham put it this way: picture an ant crawling around the boat. He likes to make sure that the ant will not touch bare wood anywhere.

I seem to be getting a fine smooth finish except for the things landing on the boat at tacKy time . I plan to almost Fully close the door today for coats 4&5 and see if that helps.

[Joe Anderson]

If you are varnishing over hardwood  it is hard for me to see a reason to undercoat with epoxy. The extra work and expense of undercoating and the headaches you can get into when refinishing don't seem offset by advantages. A big flat sheet of okoume plywood might be different. Spars probably would not benefit much from an epoxy undercoat either.

If you are concerned about water intrusion I think it pays to customize your approach to how the boat will be used and stored. The bottom of the boat,  the cockpit floor get significantly more water exposure than a spar. A boat that sits at a mooring a lot more exposure than one that spends most of its life on a trailer in a garage. What is appropriate for one situation might not be the best for another.

[Dale Niemann]

I used Epiphanes for the first 4 coats because they said you could recoat without sanding.  Then switched to Captains for the last three.  Probably will do the same this time.

 

dale

[LennieG]

Thanks all. I did what I did knowing what I knew. Next time may not epoxy everything I did this time. In any event we are mostly talking about the deck and its adjoining pieces like coaming, rub rails etc, all which can't hurt from the extra sealing I assume. It is what it is at this point, and coming out pretty good. I tried to get away with doubling up on two coats per day instead of one, but a talk with the epifanes tech person this morning as well as exchange with Chick prevented that practice moving forward.

I will trust the instructions on the can moving forward.......I will trust the instructions on the can moving froward and not take short cuts....

I will not take short cuts.....repeat....

[Hirilonde]

I will start by concurring with Paul and Joe, they pretty much nailed the subject.  There is no simple answer that fits all circumstances or the criteria of all people.

 

People are always looking for an easier and faster way of doing things.  This is not inherently a bad idea, but sometimes this pursuit leads to poor practices and results.  Hot recoating can be a good practice that also saves time.  Applying the next coat of something to a  dry to the touch but still "green" previous coat can work really well, especially for 2 part coatings like epoxy and LPUs  that chemically react and not just dry.  It can work for one part coatings like varnish as well.  But every time you cover a partially cured and dried one part coating you inhibit drying.  So yeah, you can add a second coat today, but it has repercussions on tomorrow and the next day.  When you hot recoat a one part material it will now take longer to really dry and cure.  And if you hot coat too many times in too short of a period of time it may never cure or dry properly.  So yeah, hot recoating is a viable option, but it comes with it's own set of issues to be dealt with.  When it comes to instructions for use I find the directions given by manufacturers very helpful, they want you to succeed.  When it comes to applications for a product the manufacturer is often the last source I trust, they want to sell it to me.

[PAR]

If recoating to avoid sanding, it has to be done in very thin coats, to let the previous coat finish it's cure. Most of the products we use are moisture cure, especially the polyurethanes and though the coating isn't waterproof, it can slow the cure of previous coats. I've done as many as 5 coats in a day, using accelerated conditions (I have some epoxy at 110 degrees, cooking right now). Most of this stuff requires some familiarity with the products your playing with. For example, Bristol Finish is a 2 part polyurethane I use a lot and though you can hot coat several times a day, I never let it go more then two. I had some 3 and 4 coat jobs (per day) that lifted around edges and I assumed it was because I "forced" the coating times. The edges were well eased and the prep normal, so the only mitigating factor was the hot coat routine.

 

This is especially true if hand applying the coatings, as these tend to have much more film thickness then spray (typically twice or more as thick). Also if you're thinning with something other than water, you need to permit enough time for the solvents to flash off. Most of the usually solvents (mineral spirits, toluene, xylene, etc.) have a relatively slow evaporation rate, so do some tests and see how long a teaspoon, spread out on a sheet of plate glass will flash off in the temperatures you're working. Double this time and use this as the minimum time before a recoat.

[LennieG]

Thanks guys. Appreciate the expertise and your willingness to share.

[LennieG]

Dale-

interested to know why you switched to Captains after four coats instead of staying with Epifanes. Reading about Captains last night one thing I like is that you can recoat after 12 hours whereas epiphanes is 24. When I went to varnish Monday it had been 19hours since Sunday coat and a little sticky still, but after 24 hours it was dry as a bone. Why it matters to me is that I have a 23 minute drive to boat .......when I put a 3:00 pm coat on boat I'd like to be able to recoat maybe 9 the next morning without getting caught up in a 3pm only cycle. I will need to purchase another container of varnish to finish so may go with Captains. Why did you use Cptains?

[Dale Niemann]

I am sorry but I do not remember the time between coats.  I am sure I followed the Mfg directions.  At that time, I believe Epiphanes was the only one that said you could re-coat up to 4 times without sanding between coats.  I then switched to Captains for the last three coats because it supposedly had the most UV protection.  This all took place 8 years ago so I am sure brands have changed and all of them are probably higher UV protection now.

 

I am just happy mine basically lasted 8 years without any maintenance.

 

This time around on 'Lively's re-do I am using AwlGrip paint and Epiphanes and then Petit (Flagship) because I have hired a professional to paint and varnish her and this is my professionals choices as well as mine. I have decided to use basically the same paint scheme I used on my Marissa 'Salty' which is Fighting Lady Yellow on the topsides, Whisper Gray on bottom and cockpit, Matterhorn White on deck and in cockpit, and Moondust on cockpit floor.  I am going to put non-skid on the bow deck and the cockpit floor only.  I will have a Sunfast Red bootstripe. The toe rails and gunnels will be varnished.

 

dale

[LennieG]

Thanks Dale. I needed to buy another quart of varnish today and went with the captains for the sake of the quicker recoat time, and the compatibility is apparently fine. Like how it goes on versus the epifanes. 5 down 5 coats o go. I know the purists and experts suggest 12 coats but I want to make the Cayo Costa trip.

[LennieG]

Paul and others-

I am within a few days of needing to clean up the hull. I have no visions of removing brush marks but would like to clean up various drips including epoxy, varnish etc that have collected over the Interlux enamel. Do you recommend I compound it or buff it with a polish?

Sanding seems a bit aggressive but I am open to ideas.

Also, is polishing of some sort called for on varnish if there are imperfections I want to clean up?

Thanks

Those brush strokes look moderately deep, so you might have some success, knocking them down with a buffer and cutting compound first, then move on to a polish. You might want to look into the 3M Perfect-It paint finishing system. It replaces the compounds with abrasive pads and a final polish goo. Basically using a buffer, you knock down the surface with progressivly finer grits, then use the finishing polish (I think it's actually a glaze). These pads tend to not follow the surface as much as a buffer wool, so only the highs come off at first, which is ideal fro brush marks. Of course, you have to be careful what you wish for, as the finely finished surface will show every fairing imperfection, as well as having removed the brush strokes. This is especially true of darker colors, like yours.

[Hirilonde]

I don't know that the use of several products saved any time or came out better than just Captain's.  I will be using just Captains over spars, tiller, rub rail and such and Captain's over epoxy where plywood is concerned.  Either way, that deck/coaming picture looks great.

[Chick Ludwig]

That's my plan too, like Dave (Hirilonde).

[Peter HK]

 

 

but would like to clean up various drips including epoxy, varnish etc that have collected over the Interlux enamel.

I had a few drips of epoxy on the paint after painting and removed them easily with a scraper used gently. They weren't very adherent as the surface was smooth. Using a little heat (heat gun on lowest setting) can help if they are more firmly stuck.

 

Cheers

Peter HK

[PAR]

Agreed a scraper is a good way to remove a wayward drip, but be careful, it's easy to gouge surrounding areas if you get aggressive or try going too fast. I generally try to cover finished areas, when working around the finished area. I have a boat right now I'm doing that has heavy craft paper taped around the rub rail area, cover the hull to the shop floor. This prevents drips from getting on stuff and keeps the hull clean from splatter. The same would be true if working in the deck, combings, etc., I'll tape off and mask areas to keep them clean. A multi tool sander tip, can get a drip down to a manageable size, before moving onto a scraper.

 

 

A classic example, the nice two tone cockpit seating paint job, has a protective paper on it to prevent drips and debris from the combing install above, from making more work for me.

[LennieG]

Got it guys. Thanks for input and couldn't agree more....next time I will cover up all up.i would have thought I would have known better.

Thanks

[PAR]

If you look closely at the lousy image I posted, you can see debris on the paper I put down, where I shaved off some drips or something. I get rolls of this stuff which is cheap and fairly heavy, plus doesn't let paint or goo wick/bleed through, assuming you bother to check it occasionally. On things I want absolute insurance, I buy cheap painter drop cloth plastic sheeting. This stuff drapes better than paper and will dead stop a drop of goo or paint, though generally isn't as tough as paper.

[LennieG]

Yeah I finally smartened up this time around on protecting the cockpit with 4ml plastic, but as you can see I have some serious cleanup on hull paint. May just need to add new coat or two of paint on transom and sheer to chine on the sides.