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Fishman38

fishman38 OK20

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Fishman, you need to fair all of your stringers and frames or molds before you begin planking, just as you did the bottom.  Bend a batten against the stringers, it should fit flush everywhere it touches a stringer or frame. Put the batten at a slight angle so it crosses several stringers and also a frame and check for fairness.  Don't depend on the epoxy to fill gaps.  If your batten is touching the corner of a stringer as it bends around the hull but doesn't touch it flush all the way across, that spots needs planed until it is.

 

Back aft things should be pretty close, but all has to be fair.  I would finish gluing up all of those stringers before I began planking.  Up at the bow where the stringers are forced to twist much more there will surely be fairing to be done.  When you bend a plank into position it should be flush with everything it touches.  Chine, stringers, frames, stem.  If you put your stringers in correctly, the frames will need to be beveled to match the curve of the stringers.  This is really apparent at the bow.   I spent several days fairing the topsides of the boat before I began planking.  I wouldn't commit to any planking until all the stringers are glued.  I had one that cracked a month after it had been glued.  Perhaps I bumped it during construction.  I epoxied it in place and clamped it up.  All was well.  If one broke in a bad place and you were already planked up and needed to splice in some length to get the bend, it could be a problem.  If your already fairing, disregard all this, my bad.

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A little tip on steaming.  You only have a minute or so to get the wood bent in place.  It should go all the way.  Fasten it and let it dry.  If your actually sticking the end of a stringer in a steam box, a half hour per half inch of thickness is about right.  This can be a little tough with with 20 footers.  Wrapping the end to be bent with bath towels and pouring boiling water on every 5 min for about 40 min works well but is work.  Plastic sheeting wrapped around this mess helps keep the hot moisture where it should be in between pouring of the boil water.  When you think its ready, get those towels off and get it bent and I mean in less than a minute.  Either it goes or it breaks.  I let mine dry 24 to 48 hrs and had no problems.  With the heat involved it will dry pretty quickly, but i was using Doug Fir.

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Thanks Dave for the info.  I did not realize that time from steam bath to correct position would be that critical.  I'll try the hot towel method on one and if that doesn't work back in the steam. 

 

I will be fairing the stringers prior to planking, but since all the stem to stern stringers are glued don't understand the need to wait 'till the rest of the stringers are glued to start planking back at the stern?

 

OK.  I re-read your comments and maybe understand better.  Got some more traveling to do so will just take my time and try to do it right.

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There is no reason to steam any part of a cold molded boat. If the piece wont go it means that it is too thick. Cut it thinner and do a lamination of two thinner pieces. The amount of work it takes to build a steam box etc you can laminate all of the ribbands on the boat. I am not a fan of taking perfectly good and dry wood, that we pay extra for to be that way, and add water to it. A little finesse goes a long way in fitting ribbands.

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There is no reason to steam any part of a cold molded boat. If the piece wont go it means that it is too thick. Cut it thinner and do a lamination of two thinner pieces. The amount of work it takes to build a steam box etc you can laminate all of the ribbands on the boat. I am not a fan of taking perfectly good and dry wood, that we pay extra for to be that way, and add water to it. A little finesse goes a long way in fitting ribbands.

I'll agree somewhat with your comment Tarbaby.  I didn't actually steam my stringers but used the towels and boiling water trick.  This actually worked quite well and I don't feel adds much water to the wood.  With the heat involved it drys quickly.  I considered laminating my intermediate sheer, which was quite beefy at 1 1/4 X 1 3/4.  But you would glue the first half in which would be easy.  The second layer would be a slippery mess and a little difficult to align and then clamp and clean up, but perhaps stronger.    By the way, a steam box can be made very quickly.  When I built my Haven 12.5 I made my steam box for the 44 ribs out of a piece of 4 inch PVC pipe about 4 ft long, and a 5 gal steel gas can and a radiator hose.  A 50 dollar set up that took all of 15 min to build.  I steamed the white oak keel  14 feet long by 8" wide by 1 3/8 thick using nothing more than 5 mil thick plastic wrapped around it into a tube and running my radiator hose into the end.  Again a 20 min job.

 

I guess I like the steam cause I have used it in other builds and it works.   That new hull your working up is a pretty one, the model is excellent.

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This is pretty much the same setup I am looking at, 8' 4" pvc pipe capped at one end, towel stuffed in the other due to the 18' piece of wood. Cut a 1/2' hole to accept the hose from a wallpaper steamer that I borrowed from a buddy. I plan to steam for 30-45 min. pull the wood out, dry fit and clamp for a few days until it dries and holds shape. I am not quite sure what the issue would be as long as the wood dries prior to gluing; however, the idea of laminating, much like I will do with the sheer clamp, sounds like a easier and quicker way to get the same result. This would work well with the chines being 1 x 1 1/2. 

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This is pretty much the same setup I am looking at, 8' 4" pvc pipe capped at one end, towel stuffed in the other due to the 18' piece of wood. Cut a 1/2' hole to accept the hose from a wallpaper steamer that I borrowed from a buddy. I plan to steam for 30-45 min. pull the wood out, dry fit and clamp for a few days until it dries and holds shape. I am not quite sure what the issue would be as long as the wood dries prior to gluing; however, the idea of laminating, much like I will do with the sheer clamp, sounds like a easier and quicker way to get the same result. This would work well with the chines being 1 x 1 1/2. 

You don't have to steam the entire length, only the end that is taking the extreme bend and twist, perhaps 6 or 8 feet.  Even then I don't feel a steamer is necessary.  Just wrap bath towels around the end to be bent and pour boiling water on them ever 5 min for 40 min or so and cover in between with plastic to help hold the heat in.  For sure try bending without any steaming or boiling water.  They may go in as is.  All of mine but 4 went all the way without any steaming.  Different woods bend very differently.  My Doug Fir was tough and had to either be steamed or laminated.  Southern yellow pine, according to Graham would be a good choice as it bends well.

 

My Doug Fir was not the greatest and I had many defects to deal with but managed to get the job done.  Your wood,according to what kind, will hold some shape but expect some springback.  I had no problems after steaming to get the the stringers back into position.  Something else to try would would be to cut a slit in the end of your stringer, perhaps 6 or 8 ft. long, spread that open and epoxy it up.  Then fasten it in place.  Thus acting as a lamination without fitting two entire pieces for the entire length.  Laminating a 20 ft chine would be a messy business.  Trying to get it to line up nice and square and having epoxy drip on everything.  Like trying to hold two eels together.  That just my opinion.

 

I laminated my main sheer clamp out of I think 8 lams of Doug Fir.  This ate up some time.  My  chine  was 1 1/4 X 1 3/4 X 24ft., beefy.

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I'm wondering if someone can suggest a type/brand of single part glue that is suitable as an alternative to epoxy for small jobs that require a very small amount (of glue)..... For example, I retract a broken screw using the home made roll pin retractor described above leaving a 1/4 x 1 inch hole.  Rather than fill the hole with epoxy I prefer to glue in a 1/4 x 1 dowel pin.  Is there a reason that waterproof Elmer's or Gorilla maybe, would not be suitable?.............It's pretty wasteful, not to mention messy to mix a batch of epoxy for such a purpose.  BTW, in this instance the whole thing will eventually be encased in epoxy and FG. 

 

Also BTW, I found suitable roll pins for making the retractor at Lowes.  Ace carries roll pins but none long enough.

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How much will your boat cost?  (materials & labor)  How much will a small but wasteful batch of epoxy cost for the repair? (both are rhetorical questions)  If there were a 1 part glue as good as epoxy do you think we would all be using epoxy to build boats?  Yes, I am avoiding answering your question.

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........uuuuhhhhh....I'm just filling a hole here.   The cost is not really the issue.  The time involved in mixing and clean-up is.  And as a matter of fact, waste of any shape or form is as well, at least in my mind.

 

Here's what can happen when one bends kiln dried cypress without adding back some way or another:

 

 

post-2179-0-21270000-1384915332_thumb.jpg

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For small glue jobs, I have 50ml medical syringes without needles filled with epoxy parts A and B. Clear tape over the syringe markings will keep the goo from erasing them. Very little waste when measuring milliliter amounts of epoxy. Appropriate-size toothpicks or nails cap the ends for storage. 

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........uuuuhhhhh....I'm just filling a hole here.   The cost is not really the issue.  The time involved in mixing and clean-up is.  And as a matter of fact, waste of any shape or form is as well, at least in my mind.

 

Here's what can happen when one bends kiln dried cypress without adding back some way or another:

 

 

Posted ImageDSCN0664.JPG

Ouch, splintery.  We all have to use kiln dried lumber.  No question in my mind air dried lumber, if you can find it, is by far superior.    Sometimes when I'm motivated I'll mark little jobs that need epoxy with some blue painters tape.  Then when I have enough little jobs lined up I'll mix up a batch and do them.  Invariably I miss one and find it just after I've let the last remaining bit of resin in the cup harden. 

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Here's what can happen when one bends kiln dried cypress without adding back some way or another:

Should have read "without adding water back some way or other" (I read, re-read and re-re-read the things I post and still miss errors!)

 

Great ideas Maligno, the 50ml syringes and how to manage that is.  I have been using small graduated photo lab beakers, but your method sounds much better.

 

Ditto on marking the holes with blue masking tape as well as on finding one more hole after after the glue sets up!

 

Thanks to both for the input.

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As for the question about a cheap/simple/fast one part to glue in a dowel place until you are ready to come back to entomb it into epoxy, Titebond III. This assumes you have a reasonably good fit of your joint. Gorilla would also work unless the cleanup causes you problems. If your damage hole is vertical and/or a rough fit, simply back fill it with epoxy.

 

To mix small batches of epoxy, I use graduated medicine (dose) cups that I get at the drug store. An entire sleeve of about 50 cups costs $3.  I can accurately mix batches as small as 7.5 ml, with numerous additional batch size options up to a max of 30 ml. Combined with a fast hardener, you should be off and running on a non-stressed joint in under 30 minutes at room temps. Faster if it is a warm day. This assumes 2:1 epoxy. West Systems, with it's reliance on graduated pumps, not so much.

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Gotcha Miyot, I only steamed the 8 feet on the bow end of the chine, worked great, easy, and cheap since I borrowed the wall paper steamer. Tarbaby, I was in manteo today picking up a boat and spoke to a guy who has been in and out of the boat building business for his whole life and he agrees with you, forget the steam and laminate. Too late for me as I already did it, but food for thought on my side stringers. On a side note, He told me the new 90' that Bayliss is building has (10) 2"x10"'s laminated for the keel.  Makes our little 20 an 24's look like a cake walk!

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So far the best abrasive I've found for cleaning up the epoxy smears on the planking is 40 grit garnet sandpaper.  Problem is I seem to have bought the last few sheets of the stuff in town (Harbor Freight).  HF seems to be the only store in town that ever stocked it and they tell me they won't be getting anymore of it.  When I use 50 grit it takes longer and the grit only lasts about half as long.  I may be able to get 40 grit Aluminum Oxide from an auto parts store but have never used it on a wood project and don't know whether it's a good idea.

 

I can order the 40g garnet on line but before I do wanted to see if anyone has a better suggestion.

 

Jerry

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If your local Home depot does tool rentals check out their assortment of sand paper for floor sanders. I have found various grits (down to 36) at my local  HD...

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If your local Home depot does tool rentals check out their assortment of sand paper for floor sanders. I have found various grits (down to 36) at my local  HD...

In RI we have many tool rental businesses that rent all of the types of floor sanders.  I hate Home Despot and avoid it like the plague.  I have found drum sander paper down to 16 grit.  It is basically paper with jagged rocks glued to it  :P

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Thanks guys.  I went ahead and ordered a supply from Klingspors in N.C.....Never would have thought to check with the floor sander rental stores but good info to tuck away.

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