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Fishman38

fishman38 OK20

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Once you get past the coating or glassing uses for epoxy and venture into using it as a glue, one of the first things you notice is how slippery it is. It is just thick enough to compress, but still viscous enough to move around, and when it does move the pieces you are trying to glue together move too. So what most do is keep cranking up the clamping pressure to get some friction to hold the pieces together. But if you go that far, you have squeezed all of your epoxy out, leaving a starved (read weak) joint. Far better to get the two pieces in close proximity and a nice gap. This runs counter to anyone who was taught to clamp the snocker out of a wood glue joint, but that is the case.

 

But as for that gap, how much is enough? How much clamping pressure? How much gap? If the pieces have any tension on them, such as might be the case with a curved lamination, how does a person clamp tight enough to lock things together, yet avoid over clamping?

 

The answer for me was to use a small amount of ground walnut shell in the thickened mix. A sieve size of 30/100 grit leaves just about the right amount of gap, regardless of clamping pressure. Since the shells have jagged edges, once the two pieces get close enough to touch, they more or less lock the two pieces up, preventing them from sliding around. BTW, the only time I use the shell  is when I'm clamping two pieces together. No reason to use it any other time. Not the solution for all problems, but a handy trick to have when you need it.

 

Ground shell is widely available as a polishing media. Do an Ebay search for 30 grit walnut shell. Much of what is available is English walnuts, which are apparently softer than the black walnut shell I use. Still OK I would think. Ten pounds would be a lifetime supply. BTW, walnut shell is hard, but not so hard that it will destroy a tool edge. Sand will. Do not try this stunt with sand.

 

But even with walnut shell, dry fitting with screws is still a good idea. The pieces will go right back to where you intended them to be and stay put. There are a few downsides to screws and that is they will leave a hole, so if the piece is to be finished bright and you don't want the hole, you need to do something else. Screws can also be difficult to extract if you leave them in too long, (but heat will loosen them) and lastly the hole they leave needs to be fully filled or else you could leave a pocket that water could collect in. A 3 cc syringe filled with epoxy thickened enough not to run out and a big bore needle inserted deep into the hole is all that is needed.

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I have seen discussions on another thread about the pros and cons of using (Raptor) plastic staples to fasten the top layer of planking  to the bottom layer.  What about (1) using a (longer) staple to fasten the first layer and the only layer where only one is used, to the keel, stringers, chine, gunnel etc.  (2) Using the plastic brads for that purpose.  Does anyone have experience with that?  I like the idea of not having to fill screw holes. 

 

Also I'm about to start working on beveling the keel and stem.  The only tool I can think of that might be useful and don't have is a spokeshave.  Do I need to spend that $50 -$100?

 

The description in Gougeon has the keel/stem assembly installed in the set-up before starting this.  Since Graham has drawn the bearding line on the port and starboard side of the kit supplied components, I can't see why not set it up at a comfortable working height on the shop floor.   Am I missing something here?  There may be a little difficulty in securing it well enough but I'm sure it can be done.

J.O.

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Fishman 38, you need a spokeshave.  My little Lie Nielson  was around a hundred bucks.  Its only for finish work  A Stanley would be nice.  I think Kamal is a little cheap, but serviceable with a little tuning.  I don't think you can get Raptor staples longer than 9/16.  I could be mistaken.  You don't have to worry much about screw holes on your first layer.  I just made sure the epoxy filled them while gluing on the second layer of planks.Make sure you don't take to much off of your stem and keel bevel, leave a little till after setup.

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Too late on the keel/stem bevel Miyot., it's done.  I talked to Graham just yesterday and he too cautioned about taking too much off in beveling.  At the time I was about done with one side of the keel.  After that I tried to be careful more careful but still may have to add a little material back in places.  Which I will do just before planking and will probably need to buy a spokeshave then to remove any excess material.

 

  The reason I asked about the type of spokeshave I should get is I am totally unfamiliar with the tool and in researching it there seems to be umpteen different sizes and shapes, i.e. concave, convex, low angle, chamfer, flat etc.  I'm guessing flat would be the one for general purpose and what I should get.?

 

Regarding the staples, you're right about 9/16 being the longest Raptor sells.  I know I said staples but I was thinking more of using the brads they sell which are up to 1" long, in lieu of or in addition to clamps to hold for instance the 1/2 inch aft bottom sheets and for the first layer where a second layer is to be laminated, until the epoxy sets up.  The head of the nail or brad would be sanded off with the rest left in place, same as the staples. One major downside to doing that would be the $200 cost of the pneumatic nailer that I believe is required.  A little steep to build one boat and I'm probably trying to solve a problem here that doesn't exist. :)

 

BTW, have you decided yet if you're going ahead with the center console?  If so, do you know whether any special consideration must be given in designing the console to accomodate the steering cable(s)/hoses for going under the sole vs horizontal to the gun'l, then to the engine.  Seems to me if you use a hydraulic system there would be no problem but one could wind up with some pretty steep turns in a mechanical cable. Any thoughts on that?

 

Thanks again for your input. 

 

Too bad about the broken intermediate sheer on your build.  I'm sure that's very frustrating but otherwise it looks great.  I just today found a source of clear straight grained doug fir, 3/4, 4/4 and even 8/4, right here in town.  Hopefully it'll work well.  Only problem, I think it has probably been in the warehouse a long time and in this climate  it may be well below the recommended minimum 8% moisture content.

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Good question!  Best answer I can come up with is: anticipation, speculation (and possibly arm stength deficiency?).  As I'm familiar with neither the tool (spokeshave) nor the process (for that matter I don't have a lot of experience with a block plane since I try not to stray too far from power tools, but from the pictures, I assume the former is a two-handed tool and (at least I think of) the block plane as a one-handed tool), I'm trying to anticipate what I'm going to encounter when I'm trying to finish the beveling after the frames are in place on the keel, and thinking maybe a two-handed tool might be better in working from an awkward position.  Or something like that. :) .....................jeez, I hope this makes a little sense!

Fishman 38, you need a spokeshave.

 

 

  Could be Miyot was just saying the spokeshave is a useful tool to have in one's arsenal, not necessarily for the beveling process. 

Also although the name spokeshave implies a curved cutting edge, I gather they're also available with a straight cutting edge.

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A block plane is one of the most important tools a boat builder can have. Learning to sharpen it......really sharpen it.......is one of the most important skills a builder can have. Not expensive........not hard to do......and incredibly handy.

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Howard, from what I've read on this forum I'm sure you're right, and your comments on sharpening it are well taken.  Sharpening tools not a strong suit for me.  My father always kept a razor edge on his pocket knife (I've got a nice scar to prove it) but I never mastered the art.  Just enough to get by.  I just do the best I can with a whet stone.  Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

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A block plane can't reach into a concavity.  Are you all goobers or what. :D   Fishman said he had about everything but a spokeshave.  As a matter of fact, I use a jack plane for all of my fairing.  At least whenever I can.  Or more appropriately, wherever it fits.   Sharpening a plane or any edge tool is no secrete.  Get your bevel right.  I use a sharpening guide.  Touch up often, especially when planing plywood.  Don't over.sharpen.  When you draw a wire edge on the back side, you are done.  Are you goobers or what. :D  :D

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Good question!  Best answer I can come up with is: anticipation, speculation (and possibly arm stength deficiency?).  As I'm familiar with neither the tool (spokeshave) nor the process (for that matter I don't have a lot of experience with a block plane since I try not to stray too far from power tools, but from the pictures, I assume the former is a two-handed tool and (at least I think of) the block plane as a one-handed tool), I'm trying to anticipate what I'm going to encounter when I'm trying to finish the beveling after the frames are in place on the keel, and thinking maybe a two-handed tool might be better in working from an awkward position.  Or something like that. :) .....................jeez, I hope this makes a little sense!

Fishman 38, you need a spokeshave.

 

 

  Could be Miyot was just saying the spokeshave is a useful tool to have in one's arsenal, not necessarily for the beveling process. 

Also although the name spokeshave implies a curved cutting edge, I gather they're also available with a straight cutting edge.

You need a spoke shave for beveling, can't go without it.  When I beveled my keel and stem I use an electric hand plane, a jack plane, a block plane, and a spokeshave.  I have a flat sole spokeshave, a rounded sole spokeshave, etc.

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Why would you (anyone) choose a spoke shave over a block plane for bevelling?

A block plane can't reach into a concavity.  Duh!

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Hand planes are invaluable.  Seldom do they come ready to use out of the box.  A jack plane has good weight and momentum, easy to keep things relatively flat because of its length.  Will jump small gaps or dips and only remove material where it is high.  Thus helping you to fair to a flat.  A block plane (I like a low angle block plane)  Is much shorter, very good for fairing some areas but liable to dig low spots if care is not taken.  Excellent for end grain.  The spoke shave can reach into a concavity that neither the Jack or Block plane can reach. 

 

For example, while planing my bevel on my stem, particularly the curved part at the forefoot.  I had developed some crown on my bevels.  I had been using a jack plane.  The jack plane wanted to roll going over the curve, losing contact at both ends of the plane.  Now with some skill you could probably avoid this.  After a crown is developed it is difficult to get rid of.  My little spoke shave could reach in and get the high spots, using a straight edge to check my work.  While fairing the outside of my chine plank (convex surface) the jack plane was ideal.  But both it and the block plane were useless on the inside of the chine plank (concave).

 

Fishman had said he had everything  but a spokeshave.  He needs one for his build.  I would also recommend a small rebate plane.  I am  pretty new to all of this, but my planes are my tools and they are tuned and sharp.  When one won't do what I ask, I try another.  I can skew the blade for a better cut.  I can slightly round an iron to remove some material just where I want.  Invaluable tools.  And I am just starting to learn, most have forgotten more than I'll ever know.

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Why would you (anyone) choose a spoke shave over a block plane for bevelling?

A block plane can't reach into a concavity.  Duh!

 

I guess that depends on the radius of the concavity.  I prefer a block plane for mildly concave shaping as I have more control over keeping the radius uniform.

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Goobers I guess.  :) Sharpening may not be rocket science but I don't know what you mean by:

 

When you draw a wire edge on the back side, you are done

 

 

 

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Goobers I guess.  :) Sharpening may not be rocket science but I don't know what you mean by:

 

When you draw a wire edge on the back side, you are done

 

 

 

 

Well not done exactly, but you have sharpened enough.  Ok lets say you have got the correct bevel on your plane iron.  I then rock it up about 1 degree and bring it to its final edge.  I sharpen some and then feel the edge on the back side of the iron, or the side opposite the bevel.  A slight burr or wire edge will develop when it is done.  If you did your job correctly it will be the full width of the iron.  I then lay the iron flat on my finish stone, bevel side up and make one pull holding the iron dead flat.  The direction is away from the edge of the iron, not toward it.  This removes the most of the wire edge, there is still some left.  I then give it a quick stropping on a piece of leather.  Or you can skip all of the stropping and just go to work.  The wood will strip your wire edge off, but I don't think your edge lasts quite as long.

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OK, this is pretty much the way I've always done it except I've always pushed toward the edge of the iron to remove the wire edge (I've always thought of it as a "burr"), that is, the same direction as when honing the bevel side (hopefully I'm not doing that a** backward too!), opposite to the way you describe.  Also  I've always skipped the stropping step.  I'll definitely try it your way.  I'll also see if I can find a bevel guide..........I've always "eyeballed" it with some degree of concern that I was getting it right. 

 

BTW I very carefully used the front end of a belt sander after the chisel on the concave part of the stem.  Remains to be seen whether it worked satisfactorily.  Seemed to. 

 

Thanks to all of you for all the wisdom!

 

Jerry

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