GreggS Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Just started a flyfisher and found my first mess up, nothing too serious I think I can fix it without too much trouble. The trick now is to figure out what I screwed up so I don't do it again on the next one. I started to cut out all the parts for both before I started putting it all together but knowing myself I figured it would be good to only screw up one at a time . http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/squad3lt/8da6e8c0.jpg Here's where I messed up. The stem line doesn't come together tight, so not sure if its the stem angle or the bottom angle but I'll figure it out before I cut another one out. http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/squad3lt/3aaeca9c.jpg I'm using plywood that is standard 4x8 so I had to clip the small section off of the side panel where the stem and chine meet. I glued patches in with polyurethane glue. In the pictures from the CD it looks like they used thickened epoxy. Is the polyurethane glue ok? Thanks for any advise. Gregg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Let's see if I can get those pictures to show up. That's better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Gregg, When you start to fold the butterfly into a boat shape, the stem will come together along it's length except for the section right next to the arrowhead shaped piece you added. This gap will be resolved with thickened epoxy and fiberglass tape when you add the filets and tape/epoxy the seams. Secure a piece of plastic (like from a plasic bag) to the outside of the seam with masking tape and then do the filet and tape on the inside. The plastic will keep the epoxy from falling through the crack and can be easily removed after the epoxy sets. You will be adding epoxy and tape to the outside of the seams too, so the join will be sealed. I like to put extra layers of fiberglass tape on this area of the hull because this is where the most scraping happens when beaching the boat. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Thanks for the tips Bill. I figured out what I did, it was slight measurement problem with the bottom that put the angle off a bit. I'm thinking I may need to adjust the line at the gunnel when I fold it. I'm just killing time waiting on epoxy to dry now. Shoulda bought that fast epoxy. At least the shop will be clean... I've got nothing else to do, well that I want to do anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Bill, Thanks for the links to your builds they very well documented and will help a lot. You do good work. Did you build the paddle that came with your moccasin plan? I'm trying to figure out a good way to get the profile for the handle marked out on the material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Bill, Thanks for the links to your builds they very well documented and will help a lot. You do good work. Did you build the paddle that came with your moccasin plan? I'm trying to figure out a good way to get the profile for the handle marked out on the material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillB Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 My plan set had two paddle shapes. One was shown as a single blade paddle like a standard canoe paddle and the other was refered to as the Pettingill Paddle. I chose the first blade shape and made a two ended paddle like used for a kayak. I made a blade press so I could cup the blade lengthwise and widthwise and could duplicate the blade shape for both blades. If you want the paddle CAD I created, will send it off line, just let me know your Email. Send a personal post thru this forum with your Email address so as not to post it for the public to see on this forum. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks Bill, I have cut out the blades for the petengill paddle. I am interested in the idea of a paddle press idea. I'll send my e-mail address along in a few minutes. I would like to use the canoes during spring break in a couple off weeks so I may need to make a couple of quickies at first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordy Hill Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Gees guys! Just my two cents, but I think you may be overcomplicating the whole thing. The Pettingill paddle is dead simple to build and works great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Hey Gordy, I'm going to at least build the petengill at first and then maybe later on something different. I would really like to laminate several different types of wood together to make a paddle, I like the way those look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Has anyone tried this method for strain relief at the end of the chine line? I know it will help prevent cracking in glass and metal. I'll try it this way when I fold it but if I start hearing a lot of cracking the 2x2 blocks are cut and ready to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I think I may have broken a joint on the butterfly when I flipped it over to tape the other side. Will I have to sand the joint all the way out or just smooth it and re-tape it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokeyhydro Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 You could grind and scrape a bit and then glass over the cracked joint. Adds a little weight when you double up the glass/epoxy. Stacking the joints is the preferred method - that would be plastic to keep from sticking to the base (floor - block of wood), fiberglass & epoxy wet, ply panels, layer of fiberglass & epoxy, plastic separator, FG & E (second layer glue up), ply panel, FG & E, plastic and then heavy block(s) to press it all together. Good idea to drive a few brads through the stack to keep the various parts from sliding around. Wet FG & Epoxy is kind of slippery. This method should be on your B&B plans - tis on mine for CS-15 & CS-17 If you prefer flipping to do opposite side, try tacking aligned panels to a few 1x2 cross stringers to hang it all together and relieve the floppy from the two panels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I didn't see the stack up method on the flyfisher plans but a batten across the butterfly is easy enough. Thanks for the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 OK, I'm very frustrated with the epoxy. All of the sudden it doesn't want to set up. I have stripped and re-tapped twice now wasting a lot of epoxy and tape. The first time I figured I hadn't mixed well enough, the second time someone told me the pumps become less accurate as vacuum builds up in the bottle so I opened the caps and let the vacuum out, still no good. I just stripped and re-tapped the third time. What I tried this time is to mark the mixing cup with a 2:1 ratio by using a measuring cup. We'll see how it goes this time. Any ideas, I'm running out of patience and material before the butterfly is even tapped together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Go buy one of those IR lamps from Lowes -run you about 8-9 bucks. If your epoxy is cold and thick it may not mix well. I like to warm mine up under the lamp as I stir it in the cup. Sometime, when the temperature drops halfway through the cure, it stops the curing process and it has a hard time getting going again. It will cure eventually but it may seem like forever -think -now you have to warm not only the epoxy but the glass and plywood as well. The whole matrix. Here is another situation I like the lamp for. Let it shine on the joint a bit to speed up the cure. In fact -if you go to B&B site and look through the pictures there's a guy (me) doing a butterfly on a CS20 under a bow roof shed and I am doing precisely that. Try it and good luck PeterP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokeyhydro Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Major PITA when epoxy won't kick. I have read the horror stories of epoxy fails on various forums but have never had a problem. I started building boats in the `80s and have always used WEST resin. The WEST can has a temp graph for hardener selection with 205 fast being the cold temp choice and 209 tropical for steamy hot weather. I have used 205 fast, 206 slow, 207 clear finish which is about the same speed as 206, just a more clear finish, and 209 tropical. 25 years plus of assembling boats with goo and it always kicks, although around 50 deg F even 205 is kind of slow, but eventually it gets hard. Sounds like you're meticulous about getting the correct mix ratio, so unless it is so cold you have to scrape frost off the pieces before slobbering epoxy on them I would say your epoxy is suspect. If the problem continues I suggest delivering the epoxy to a hazmat disposal site and go get WEST resin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisObee Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Everyone has thier own favorite epoxy. I prefer the 2 to 1 epoxies, I use the MarineEpoxy from bateau.com, also available on duckworks. There are only a couple issues that will stop your epoxy from curing. Incomplete mixing, bad ratio, contamination, and temp. You said you stripped the old epoxy off, did you use a chemical? That may be a contaminant. Is it cold? Try tenting your project and place heat lamps under the tent to elevate the temp of the whole project. What is the epoxy you are using? You need to strictly adhere to the mixing and ratio requirements of the epoxy to get a good cure. The 2 to 1 epoxies make it difficult to be so far off on your ratio that a cure will not happen. Mixing well is a bit of an art. you need to scrape the sides of the container, you need to mix long enough to get a complete mix you need to stop soon enough that you have time to apply the epoxy. Read the instructions on your epoxy and follow them exactly is the best advice that anyone can give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggS Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Thanks guys, I'm in central Florida and the weather until day before yesterday was dry and warm. It rained all day on Monday and stayed cool. Since then it's warm and steamy. I re-taped last night, this morning the left over resin in the cup was hard as a brick bat and the joints were dry to the touch but still a little soft that's after 12 hours. I think it's a good sign that the cup hardened, I know the joint will take a bit longer. Maybe my pumps are off since I used the measured cups with what seems (fingers crossed) to be a better outcome. I bought the epoxy and pumps from B&B so I don't know the brand. The batches two batches that did cure when I started were crystal clear and looked really nice. By the way hokey I used two 3/4" battens screwed together through the seem between the bottom and side, worked like a champ. Thanks for the suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy C. Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Gregg, I've used B&B's epoxy for my build and have had good results, except one time. I measured the first few batches in cups, everything went well. The first batch I mixed using the pumps didn't hold. I didn't realize that the 'A' pump measured out twice as much as the 'B' pump. So, when I pumped I gave the 'A' two pumps and the 'B' pump one pump. I had too much 'A' and the epoxy didn't hold. After I was 'straightened out on measuring' everything has gone along fine. Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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