CS 15 / 17 suitability, capsize, reefing, masts

[Dig]

As a new member I have been 'trawling' through the B&B forums. I like all of Graham's designs but of particular interest to me are the Core Sound boats. The 15 or 17 probably suit my needs best.

Would like to:

1. easily rig, launch, and sail single hand

2. ability to camp cruise, camping onboard

3. maybe would like to incorporate small cuddy cabin if that were possible

I have noted numerous references to capsize, floatation, sealed hatches, re-righting etc?

Most of my sailing experience has been in small to medium sized multihlls and monohulls of 20 foot plus. I have no experience of dinghy / small boat sailing. If one is, as I think I am, a rather conservative sailor, is one still likely / highly likely to experience capzizes regularly? Is it like riding a bicycle, "there are only two types of riders, those who have had a fall and those who will"?

Also there seems to be much conversation on best types of reefing systems for these craft? I have expereince of mast tracks but not of sleeves. Opinions for single handed reefing?

Seems that most / all masts are aluminium bottom topped by length of timber, presume for bendability? Has anyone built full wooden masts?

Thanks in anticipation of responses.

DIG

[Gordy Hill]

Hi DIG!

I never felt I was ever in danger of capsizing and have sailed in some pretty challenging conditions. That said, it's possible, and you should always have a plan and be prepared.

Sleeve luffs are much quicker and easier to rig. The sail is left wrapped around the mast. The main mast with sail can be popped in place in the parking lot while standing next to the boat on the trailer. You have to step aboard to step the mizzen. By myself I'd estimate the time from arrival at the ramp to sailing away with the truck parked to be about 10-15 minutes. With my friend it'd be much quicker if he didn't stop and talk to everyone.

Reefing is much quicker and easier with sail tracks. That said, unless you're several miles off shore when the thought hits you, the boat can be sailed with full sail to a place where you can reef.....or you can just ignore it and spill wind during the worst gusts.

I spent numerous nights aboard my CS17 and one camping on the shore.

[Dale Niemann]

I have sailed my CS 17 'Lively' for about 4 years now and have not capsized her yet.  I actually did have water come over the side deck once but as soon as I released the main she righted immediately.  I have sailed her in up to 25 knots and not felt threatened (this was double reefed).  I switched from sleeve sails to track sails and have never been sorry.  I mostly singlehand.  The track sails with two reef points are right for just about all conditions.  I roll the sails on the masts for transport and storage or when camping.  Rigging takes about 10-15 minutes.

I have a custom made tent cabin.  It has worked very well on several sail/camping trips one just about 2 weeks ago to Cayo Costa State Park in Florida.  I consciously made one choice in design of the cabin which I have since regretted.  I wanted very high sitting room.  I decided that I would not worry about the ability to sail with the cabin up.  This was a mistake.  If I were to do it again, I would opt for a cabin low enough so I could still sail with it up.  She is a great beach camping boat.  See our WCTSS sailing club website for photos of her at our latest beach camping trip.

http://members.ij.net/wctss/wctss/photos61.html

[Peter HK]

Hi Dig

I have a CS17 and it's very stable, so sailed conservatively with reefable sails capsize is very unlikely. However I'm a physician and thus keenly aware of the concept of risk, so I have posted on capsize tests and efficient reefing systems because to me that seems sensible.

http://www.messing-about.com/forums/index.php?topic=7577.0

http://www.messing-about.com/forums/index.php?topic=7108.0

Remember the old adage- if you prepare for the worst it's unlikely to happen :grin:

As for masts the plans include solid and bird's mouth wooden masts as options and many have done so.

Cheers

Peter HK

[paul_stewart]

Hello Dig,

Re. capsize:  The CS15, CS17, and CS20 are indeed quite stable as Gordy, Dale and Peter noted.  Worrying about and trying to carefully avoid any possibility of capsizing is not the best way to go.  Practice with capsize and recovery builds a lot of confidence and you'll begin to feel that capsize is not a big deal.  One can take the point of view that it's an unballasted dingy, so capsize and recovery is a normal expectation.  Practice as much as you need (which can be a lot of fun) and then as Gordy said you will feel that you have a plan and are prepared, mentally and operationally.  After finishing our CS20 we were intending to do some capsize practice, but hadn't gotten around to it, when I accidentally capsized it in rough conditions during a 30 knot gust on the Neuse River....

                              trip report=  http://cs20dawnpatrol.blogspot.com/2010/08/practice-makes-better.html

... when it instantly became clear that (a) I had only partially pulled the mainsheet out of the cleat and ( capsize and recovery is no big deal.  Since then we have practiced intentional capsize and recovery a few times.  Dawn and I both stood on the coaming held the mizzen halyard and leaned back a little, then grabbed mizzen mast and leaned way back.  I was certain the practice of righting our CS20 would instill tremendous confidence, so was a little surprised when her summary of the activity was "It sure was easy to capsize."    If you are practicing capsize and recovery with others,  try to make it look really hard to do the capsize part. 

Re. cuddy cabin: a small cabin of some kind tends to make the boat less likely to 'turtle' during a capsize and recovery. For easy practice with no chance of turtling, one can run fenders/floats up the masts.   

--Paul   

[Randy Jones]

Hello Dig,

Wooden mast are indeed possible.  I've got a CS17 with solid wooden masts and laced on sails.  The mast were laminated from 5 pieces of 3/4 thick Douglas Fir then shaved down. The lacing on the sail slows down the reefing process and requires climbing on the foredeck for reefing.  I nearly changed to sail track but decided instead to practice reefing and have gotten efficient enough with reefing now that I'm staying with the lacing.  Sails have no battens and I store the sails rolled up on the masts, which means that I rarely have to undue the lacing. 

I'd loose a race against other CS17's fitted with aluminum mast and battened sails, but my arrangement works fine and I prefer the traditional appearance of wooden masts and laced sails.  Wooden masts are also a little heavy, especially the main with the sail and boom attached.  Stepping (and unstepping) the main mast requires some strength and balance, but with a little practice it is not a problem for a full sized guy in good health. 

[MickG]

Paul:  I notice that you have full battened sails with quite an extended roach Do you find that this has given you a noticeable increase in performance?/ Do you see any downside? AND, where did you purchase the sails. Thanks, Mick

[paul_stewart]

Mick,

Purchase: Graham and Carla at B&B Yacht Designs had our sails made for the Dawn Patrol (http://cs20dawnpatrol.blogspot.com).  We also purchased our mizzen stays'l from B&B. We specified the colors and pattern;  as I recall the stays'l cost for any pattern using two colors was the same as the cost of a solid-color stays'l.   I believe the prices at B&B were very competitive  --and probably still are.  

Pros and Cons:   Graham knew that we were building the CS20 Dawn Patrol specifically for the March 2008 Everglades Challenge (EC) adventure race, so he was encouraging that we should go with the roachier sails and we should use sail tracks on the masts.  There was no question in my mind about the choice of sails.  We've enjoyed using them.  We leave the battens in place and roll up the sails for trailering.   I am not aware of any disadvantages.  I just want to sail as fast as possible.

Experience:  The 2008 EC was the Dawn Patrol's maiden voyage and shakedown.  We covered the 300 miles in 3 Days, 12 Hours, 40 Min.  Finished 3rd in Class4,  just 3 hours after Graham's EC22 Southern Skimmer finished.   The sails have held up well since then.  The milage:  ~550 miles in WaterTribe races, ~200 miles in coastal cruising, and maybe ~100 miles on lakes.

Ask Graham:  Graham or someone else who has experience with both kinds of sails could do a better job telling you the pros and cons in terms of performance and cost.   Graham could probably tell you exactly how much difference it makes performance-wise.

--Paul

[Ken_Potts]

I am not aware of any disadvantages

  I've rigged my boat in 11 minutes on more than one occasion, which allows me to go for the occasional half-hour sail  :cool: Having said that, I can't count the number of times I've been on the water, looked up at Dawn Patrol's sails and thought to myself (ala Mister Scott) "We canna catch her, Cap'n, we just dinna hae the roach fer it!"

  Everything's a trade-off.

  I had to work pretty hard to turtle my CS17 and I'm not afraid to do it again.  It's hard to do, but easy to recover from (dress accordingly).

[paul_stewart]

Kirk:  "Scotty, I need warp speed onto the trailer in three minutes or we're all dead!"

[Dig]

Just a thanks to all who have replied. All good information. If anyone else has info / comments please keep it coming. All good!

DIG

[Hirilonde]

We almost hit warp speed that day Paul.  My first sail on a B&B cat ketch was a good one.

[Ken_Potts]

All in all I'm glad we didn't tell you about that warbird on our tail...  You looked too happy to be bothered with all that photon torpedo stuff.

[Brent]

The full batten sails make for a very fast boat, but only  for those sailors that want the extra horses.  I have solo camp cruised extensively on my cs20. The 15 is smaller than my preference for longer trips.  The 20 is overall great,  but a bit much to drag up the beach solo especially when expedtion loaded.  But there is plenty of room for comfort gear.

[MickG]

Thanks to all that replied to my question of full battened sail with an extended roach. I will be needing a new mizzen as the one I have apparently can not be made to set properly. (BIG pocket under sprit close to mast when the sprit is on the leeward side and the course is close hauled) I have lowered the attachment point 11inches from the point indicated on the plans, but very little improvement. Any body got any ideas?? The main sets perpectly.  Thanks

[Brent]

If there is a halyard try tweaking the sail up and down the mast.  A little Halyard goes a long way.  If

that doesn't do it I would think a longer sprit would be easier than a new sail.

[MickG]

Brent: I do have a halyard but I don't understand what you mean by "tweaking up and down" Also, please eleberate on the idea of a longer sprit. Thanks, Mick