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CS 17 building time from kit


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Good day,

I'm contemplating building the Core Sound 17 from the pre-cut kit. My maximum building time is limited to 30 days, due to access to the building location and the length of my vacation.

Would you say that this is possible, i.e., around 300 hours? Not aiming for a museum piece, but obviously a well-built boat with good finish.

Regards,

Mats

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You didn't mention your experience level, that will obviously make a big difference. Speaking for myself as a builder of 1 small sailboat, I couldn't even come close to finishing in 30 days. It seems like you are assuming that you can get 10 hours of work every day for 30 straight days. That seems very optimistic to me. I find that it takes me several days to get 8 actual hours of work done. There will be times when you have to let the epoxy cure before you can move on to the next task. Other folks will probably have a different opinion.

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Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply. My experience level is above average, I would say. Have worked alot with wood in various jobs and have attended a few wooden boat restoration courses.

But you may still be right that 10 hrs per day may be optimistic. Needless to say, I'd love to build this boat and this is the only possible slot.

Regards,

Mats

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  I bet you could get the boat finished enough to put on a trailer in 30 days if nothing else.  It's the last 10% of the work that takes most of the time, right?  I should mention here that I haven't built the kit so my bet is probably not a good thing to base your project on.

  It might be good to ask Graham if HE could build the kit in 30 days.  If he says "yes", that doesn't necessarily mean much to you but if he says "no" you'd have a pretty definite asnwer.

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Shop space?  Once upon a time I built a 9 1/2' hydroplane in my living room - told the curious neighbors it was an artsy coffee table. The wife was very understanding - the boat was for our son. And our racing crew of about 3 folks built a half dozen hydroplanes in less than three weeks. But we cheated. Used an air stapler to tack it together while the epoxy cured. And we worked under the "HokeyHydro" factory motto: Hammer to fit. File to shape. Paint to hide.

How much can you pre-assemble outside of your temporary shop space?

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Might be possible to build the hull from kit in that time.

I kept a tally of the number of hours- 467 hours to build my CS17 (not a kit). It was my 5th build, mostly in 1 hour periods after work which is not the most efficient way but included everything. If you could pre or post build parts like the rig/rudder/centreboard ...which don't have the space requirements as the hull... then with the efficiency of the kit you might do the hull only in the time limit.

Cheers

Peter HK

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Sukie's built the kit.  Sukie - What do you think?  Ray has too.  Ray?

C'mon all you CS17 kit builders, you're the experts! enquiring minds want to know!

Peter and HokeyHydro have a good point that a lot of the work doesn't need a shop.  The centerboard, rudder, spars, hatch covers and anything else that isn't actually the hull structure can be built in either a living room or a driveway.  If you add hull finish work that's a lot of hours to subtract from the total build time.

Definitely study the plans hard beforehand.  There are things (like the centerboard) that should be on hand when building certain aspects of the hull (like the centerboard trunk) so those should be built before starting the 30 day clock.

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You could build it to completion and coat it suitable shape to get it outside in 30 days, But I find it highly doubtful one could complete a boat in 30 days.

Working pretty full time I can get a completed CS 17 from start to finish in 8 weeks time. And I have built more than a few of them.

I don't know that I push 70 hrs a week, but I can tell you that would be awfully hard to maintain for a month.

And points made about cure time eating into the day is really on track.

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While I haven't built a CS-17, I found that there was no way I could put that many hours a day in on the builds I have done. When I was into the epoxy/fiberglass work heavily on these boats, I found that I could only put a few hours a day into the boat before I ran into epoxy cure time.

Knowing Ray through this forum (I would like to meet him face-to-face someday), his thoughts about the build are "right on."

30 days is just too short to get a build done, in my opinion,

Steve

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What a fascinating experiment this would be.  The time-constrained builder would have to have a very detailed plan for each day.  He would need to stage work on many small projects to maximize every available hour.  When running into epoxy wait time on hull seams, he'd immedately move onto the rudder, then onto masts, then back onto the hull the next morning.  Whenever he ran into glue time on a task, he would have to have one or two other tasks ready to go.  He would constantly rotate around his shop. 

Another issue would be lumber/parts/supplies.  With no possibility of wasted time, one would need to identify and order EVERYTHING up front so it would be ready and at hand.  Any missing part or supply that would need to be ordered and shipped could derail the timetable.  This would be tough.

Theoretically, it's possible.  The engineer in me would love to tackle it.  Heck, it would be fun to get two or three guys working on such a project around the clock; just to see how quickly a boat could be built--without sacrificing quality.

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Such an endeavor would be greatly assisted by having a shop for cutting and small part assembly separate from hull assembly area.

And I think in my estimation it would positively preclude fiberglass coating of hull form in order to get done in 30 days.

Eliminating glass cloth would easily save 3 days of build time.  Mind you that is 3 days of build time, not 30 hrs....

And I think to get it done in this time frame you would be looking at all paint, no varnish finish and liberal use of quick fair for fairing and smoothing....

The problem in my mind is there simply is not enough fill in work such as rudder cboard mast etc to fill in all the cure time issues.

When building in a small 2 car garage shop, I find myself working for maybe 3-4 hrs and then leaving shop for afternoon and tending to other business out and about house and at apartment buildings and then doing more work in evening after supper, say another 3-4 hrs there and I typically will work 6-7 days a week at it in that matter with all fast hardener.

Clearly someone could get boat largely built and coated with epoxy to protect from elements in 30 days with a kit.  You could likely get masts and cboard and rudder done in that time.

Finishing , IE: Smoothing and final fair and painting will easily take up an additional 2 weeks of time with cure time and all... and rigging takes all of 40 hrs of time.

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Well Ken, you've painted me into a corner on the "time to build a kit" question. I've built several other boats, but my skills are still minimal and I spend more time thinking about and worrying about every step than I do actually doing it. But I do know that the issue of epoxy cure time is very real, and there are only so many other projects to do while waiting. (And, I haven't seen any mention of the "oh s---!" moments when one has to take a sawzall to a just completed step.)  My kit was delivered in March, I worked on it untill spring then took a break till the next fall and took all winter to complete it. I did have brain surgery during that time, but other than that 2 months off I worked on it about 2-3 hours a day.

And we shouldn't forget that the journey is half the fun, I wouldn't have wanted to rush through the whole process. I enjoyed each and every step (well, maybe not the sanding  :?). So Mats, perhaps you should buy a used daysailer and use that as your fix until you can find the time to truly enjoy the building process. And I promise you, you will enjoy it if you take your time. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Sukie

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Sorry Sukie,

I didn't mean to paint you into a corner.  I don't even like painting.  :grin:

Your kit went together considerably faster than my boat (built from plans).  I took 3 and a half years to get on the water.  I built on a screened porch so every time the weather was good for epoxy it was also good for fishing, kayaking, or any number of other endeavors.  I think you hit the nail right on the head when you mentioned enjoyment of the process.  When I felt like working on the boat I worked on the boat and when I felt like doing something else I did whatever that else was.

Having not built the kit I can't imagine building the whole boat in 30 days but I can imagine getting a solid hull on a trailer ready to finish under a makeshift structure in the backyard in 30 days.

Mats - Is there any chance of redirecting funds from the building location to building a temporary shed in the back yard?  The build will take longer because you'll be at the mercy of ambient temperature, but you'll get there eventually as long as you don't stop building - And the experience might be more pleasant overall.  Climate control is one of the best things to have when working with epoxy, but it's not completely necessary unless you're building at the South pole or on the moon. ;)

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In the 20 something years I've been working with B&B boats, there have been some very fast builds and some very slow ones.  Could I build a CS17 kit in 30 days?  It would be an interesting experiment.  I think, the hull, yes it could be completed in fairly workmanlike fashion in 30 days.  The foils and spars, etc?  Perhaps not since each piece could soak up a couple days each.

The secret to meeting such a schedule is organization of time, materials and processes.  The organization would depend on having done the same or similar building tasks before and the ability to lay out the work in the most efficient sequence.  There could not be any fumbling about, reworking or time lost in thinking about the next job.  In the best weather conditions, I don't think the epoxy cure time should be a big issue.  Schedule the big epoxy jobs for late in the day.

The kit would save a huge chunk of time over building from plans.  This would not be the most fun way to build a boat though.

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What a fascinating experiment this would be.  The time-constrained builder would have to have a very detailed plan for each day.  He would need to stage work on many small projects to maximize every available hour.  When running into epoxy wait time on hull seams, he'd immedately move onto the rudder, then onto masts, then back onto the hull the next morning.  Whenever he ran into glue time on a task, he would have to have one or two other tasks ready to go.  He would constantly rotate around his shop. 

Another issue would be lumber/parts/supplies.  With no possibility of wasted time, one would need to identify and order EVERYTHING up front so it would be ready and at hand.  Any missing part or supply that would need to be ordered and shipped could derail the timetable.  This would be tough.

Theoretically, it's possible.  The engineer in me would love to tackle it.  Heck, it would be fun to get two or three guys working on such a project around the clock; just to see how quickly a boat could be built--without sacrificing quality.

There are some "builder assist" programs for kit aircraft that do exactly that.  The builder doesn't have to order, unpack, set up, build fixtures, decide what to do next, clean up, etc.  The paid staff does that.  All the builder does is build.  http://www.twoweekstotaxi.com/about.html

For an aircraft to be legally registered as amatuer-built -- and hence free from commercial certification requirements -- the builder must doument that they did at least 51% of the construction.  The builder assist centers help folks meet the letter of the law in the most efficient way.  The spirit of the law -- building for "recreation and self-education" -- may suffer.

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I think a CS-17 could be built in 30 days, but not by the average back yard builder, in spite of their building experience.

What pro's do much better then amateurs is budget their time, supplies and materials. We'll setup to fair the hull, then paint, quickly roll over and continue painting, so we can stay in the painting groove. Or we'll save epoxy laden tasks for the next scheduled epoxy run, so you can spend several hours doing nothing but epoxy work, instead of bits and pieces.

Only a well equipped and organized shop will have this ability. Foresight is the other major player in this type of build. A "seasoned" builder (meant for Tom and the rest of us old farts) could arrange and organize a build like this, particularly if it was a semi production run of several CS-17's.

I think I could build a presentable CS-17 in 30 days, rig and all. The hull would be reasonably fair and sheathed, the paint job quite basic, cream inside and another color outside. The inside of the lockers would be natural, tape seams in enclosed spaces wouldn't be faired, no fancy anything, just a basic CS-17. This would be building her in about 1/2 the time of a usual basic build, but possible.

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Once at the Beaufort Woodenboat Show, four of us pulled a Spindrift 10 hull off the mold after about 4 hours work.  May have been less but not more time. 

Graham and I built a Bolger Tern in a Sika Contest in the Georgetown Show some years ago.  I did the organization and layout ahead of time.  Graham cut out all the lumber bits, including making oars, while I cut out all the plywood pieces.  This took a bit less than 1 1/2 hours during which we did not even speak to each other.  Then we put the boat together and finished in 2 hours 18 min.  There were about 16 teams and a couple teams  finished before us although they had all built the boat one or more times previously.

Interesting thing to do once.  Preparation and organization is everything.

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