Mast Hoop question

[Bill]

How many mast hoops are needed as a minimum on a weekender. What should the inside diameter be, will 4" work?

thanks,

Bill

[Frank Hagan]

Depends on the number of grommets in the sail! I made 10, as the standard sails from the Stevenson's have 9 grommets you'll use for hoops, and I wanted an extra at the bottom. (There are actually 11 grommets along the luff on the Stevenson's sails, but the top one is attached to the gaff and the bottom to the boom).

If you're buying Paul's sails, you'll have to ask him how many grommets he provides (I suspect its also 11, with 9 needing hoops). If you are making polytarp sails, check out Dave Gray's White Polytarp Sails site, scroll down and click the link for the Weekender sails. Dave does a good job of providing some drawings, and on the drawing at least, he has 8 grommets for hoops (plus one for the gaff and one for the boom connection).

The traditional way to size mast hoops is to make the diameter of the mast hoop 25% larger than the diameter of the mast. For the standard tapered mast the plans have, 4" black plastic ABS couplers work fine. They are for joining together 4" ABS pipe, and actually measure about 5 1/4" diameter (the inside diameter being about 4 3/4"). The 4" designation on the pipe is really a nominal size, similar to a 2 x 4 not really being 2 x 4" in size.

If you are using some other method to make the hinge, you have to be sure the mast hoops will be large enough to make it over the hinge. You can't fold the mast down with the mast hoops above the hinge. With that in mind, you need to allow 8 - 9" between the mast hinge and the boom so the hoops/sail/gaff can be folded on top of the boom prior to folding down the mast.

[Bill]

Thanks Frank,

Guess I'm gonna build a steamer! I was at the Boatbuilders show here in Maine yesterday and managed to pick up Eight, "Pert and Lowell" Mast hoops (steamed oak, copper rivets etc.) for "$1.00 each!" A deal I couldn't pass up. I didn't have any measurements with me but at that price I figured they would make cool coasters or Hanging plant pot holders or some such craft project if they weren't correct. They are supposedly "seconds" but, their standards are high enough that they are still excellent in my book. They have some really nice items like deadeyes, blocks etc., but the prices reflect the quality and then some.

Ah well, back to the drawing board on this one....

Thanks for the info...

Bill

[Derek]

Ray, I've really been considering making my mast hoops from beads. What did you use to hold them. It's looks like thin gauge wire?

[Frank Hagan]

I was at the Boatbuilders show here in Maine yesterday and managed to pick up Eight' date=' "Pert and Lowell" Mast hoops (steamed oak, copper rivets etc.) for "$1.00 each!" A deal I couldn't pass up. [/quote']

:shock:

AAAAAARGH! I can't believe the deals you guys in the "boatbuilding capital" run into! I was back there at Mystic Seaport one time, trying to figure out how to get 100 board feet of air dried white oak in the overhead compartment (it was selling for $1 a board foot).

I think I would try to make them work if they are the right size. Or even close. And buy an additional one. I have seen their stuff, and its top notch!

[Russ Sylvester]

A buck apiece?!? That's just obscene. People at the marinas around here don't even know what I'm talking about when I talk about mast hoops. Hell, when I mention steaming wood most of them just look at me sort of stupid and ask why I would want to do that! Forget about asking for copper rivets, you'd have thought I asked for frog feathers.

Want to buy some more and ship them south???

[Mike Pennington]

Serious, such a deal, a buck a piece! I went over and checked out their site, they want $12 to $13 for the 5-5&1/2, hoops regularly. Oh well! I was hoping, the best deal so far that I have seen has been the beaded hoops. One would think the boat building list would get smaller eventually, but no, I keep finding more that I want to do.

[Bill]

$1.00 is obcene, I just wished I had gone to the booth earlier, I was there on saturday morning and I'm quite sure most of the stuff got picked off on friday. In the early morning on saturday before I had bought them, I saw a whole load of hoops that had to be 16 or 17" inside diameter. Some lady scoffed them all up in one fell swoop before I could get back over there. I bet of friday they probably had some deadeyes too. :cry:

Even though the wooden Boat building activity in our state is pretty high, you still won't find quite a few of the items you need "off the shelf" so to speak. You need to order it just like everyone else. The nice thing is, you do have a wealth of information from the old timers etc. to find out what to use and how to use it. The thing is, a lot of the boatyards are in small out of the way coastal towns and the guys just look at it like any other blue collar trade and work and go home to sleep. They are not all that interested in making thir skills and trades a lesson for the back yard builder. Most of the Boat Building schools and classes are pretty much a full time thing like any technical school and are actually pretty expensive.

As far as wood goes, we have to hunt and peck like everyone else. There are a few lumberyards in the southern part of the state that can get what you need but it is for a price. The ready cut lumber, even at a lumber yard in the rest of the state is just simple pine and stuff. Douglas Fir is non exsistant, mahogany, oak of any size, marine plywood etc. is very hard to find and you have to set up some sort of a deal to get it shipped. That's gonna cost ya!

Finding old Portlights, masthoops, deadeyes or any other authentic piece would cost you much more than buying new! Rich folks from "away" like to buy them as decorative stuff for their eclectic, adds interest, type of lifestyle you see in better homes and gardens or on HGTV! The best bet is to hit the garage sales on the coast during the summer months and if you are early enough then maybe you can find that special item. Even at that, most of the locals know they can get a premium price from some unsuspecting tourist and manage to sell the stuff off for big bucks.

So, whats it all mean? Well, living in Maine doesn't really help us out all that much. A good deal is a good deal no matter where you find it. Mast hoops, are/where a good find but won't do you any good if you can't get the proper lumber or glue to build the rest of the project. In that sense, we might as well be in any other state, in the big picture, we are all in the same boat!

Cheers,

Bill

[capt jake]

Derek, I have a lot of those beads that you will need. I have 5 of those hoops made up, now it looks like I need 6???

[Derek]

Cool! But double check that you have enough hoops before you unload any. Is 5 or 6 enough?

[Derek]

<<<<< I'm trying, but still can't seem to shake that Pollywog status.

[capt jake]

I'm trying, but still can't seem to shake that Pollywog status.

There's another 'Pualywog' that will need to come forth and let 'us' know how many hoops to make.

[Derek]

LOL , I like the twist there Capt!

[Mike Pennington]

I wonder if a person could buy the wood strips, coil, rivet and epoxy them. I think I'll pay a visit to the hobbie store. I used macremae rings in a pinch, because I didn't want to use ABS, and they are actually strong enough, after I weeded through a few. So I don't expect I will have to make the wood ones to thick. :icecream:

[Frank Hagan]

I tried using the iron-on white oak veneer edging stuff, and it was a miserable failure. I think it was because the iron-on adhesive is too soft. If you used veneer and epoxy, I think it would probably work.

I'm actually thinking of steaming or boiling oak and making mast hoops a more traditional way. The problem with pre-formed oak hoops though is that you have to remove all the running rigging to get them over the mast and down to the sail. I'm thinking of making a hoop with a long scarf for the joint and gluing it in place around the mast. I could make the first ridgid, non-movable mast hoop that way though :roll: So I haven't thought this all the way through yet.

[Mike Pennington]

I went to the craft store looking for wood stripping but no luck so far. I need to talk with one of the ladies from work she makes some awsome baskets, she may be a resorce.

I did find some wooden embrodery hoops for about $1.59. They are odering a 5 1/2 inch size for me to look at. They even have little brass clamps on the side to tighten them down. We will see.

I too, like the idea of soaking the strips myself. I was wondering if I cut down a young alder in the spring, cut some long narrow strips from it and shape the hoops while they were still green and then let the wood cure, would possibly work?

Mike

[Mike Pennington]

The beads are my next option, and I expect they will work very well too. Just one more thing on my list to fine tune.

[Bill]

I think i'm gonna try steamin' em'! The embroidery hoops might actually work. I saw some at one of our local craft stores a while back too. The store was closing out on some stuff and they had them for about a buck each. Wal-Mart is a good place to look too if you want to try them. I think possibly two or three thicknesses of wood along with enough epoxy and it would hold up. As far as the little pieces of hardware on them, I don't know, it's pretty flimsy looking. I know that my boat won't be a true, traditional, woodenboat but, I just can't do PVC hoops. I like the looks of real ones on the big schooners, and when i'd glance over at my own PVC, I would be feeling like I'm trying to sail a Model Boat!

I've seen more than one link to build steamers and looked at quite a bit of information and it really doesn't look that tough.

Pert Lowell uses Red oak on their small ones. They boil it in a water and alchohol mixture. I'm going to try both white oak and ash and see what works best for small bends. I plan on putting together a steamer similar to this:

http://www.megspace.com/lifestyles/njmarine/Steam.html

I like Rays ideas on using a Cut piece off PVC for a bending jig! I'm not quite sure about the epoxying though...seems like kind of a messy proposition and you'd have to wait for all of it to dry while trying to keep it bent. Three rounds of 1/8" wood all riveted wouldn't need any epoxy anyway.

Routing the edges would be another hurdle. A jig would probably have to be made. The edges should be routed after the rivets are in and the pieces are dry and tight. I dunno, I haven't thought that far ahead yet for an easy answer.

I managed to bend some 1/8" Red Oak strips after "baking/boiling" them in a broiler pan at 350 degrees for about 40 minutes! (the double broiler on top of the stove method didn't work) I could only fit a 14 inch piece in the pan, but it bent around a coffee can pretty well. I then riveted it, with a pop rivet and it looked pretty good!

Must admit, Erica was pretty good about it. She came home from work and wanted to know what all the wood, water, gloves, cans, rivets etc. were on the kitchen counters. My reply was "steaming experiments"! She just just shrugged and went into the livingroom. I guess as long as i'm not arc welding on the kitchen table she's pretty cool!

I think I may check out some local roofing guys or a coppersmith that is local to see what they have on hand for Rivets (copper) so I don't have to order a zillion of them through a dealer. The other way to do it is with the more traditional rivets and roves. That would be a new experience.

WoodenBoat Magazine has an article on Pert Lowell and mast hoop production in issue 65:40. I don't have a copy but I sure would like to see it. (hint hint)

I think after going through the expense and time of building my own I probably could buy some for the same cost but, I'd like to give it a whirl.

I think the learning experience along the way will be worth it and I can probably find some sort of uses for the skills learned on another part of the boat.

Who knows, if they turn out well enough, maybe I can peddle some of them off down at the waterfront next month when the schooners come out from under the plastic and up from the warmer ports. They usually spend a month or so in the interim before tourist season doing all the yearly painting and repairs.

Just a few thoughts...

Bill

[Guest David Haddock]

Could one simply use a track and slides/shackles to avoid the whole hoop idea?

what would be the draw-backs please? Seem's it would be a cleaner look too.

Just curious.

Thanks!

[Bill]

Dave,

I think, in a nutshell it could be done. The Boats were designed to be gaff rigs which were traditionally rigged with mast hoops. I, like many others building these boats would probably do best to stay within a particular design envelope for the time being. The idea of sail track is ok. Heck, Herreschoff himself invented it. Although, at the time they also were changing the whole sail and rig systems of the 19th century. I'm thinking that a sail track, although seemingly simple in design would in fact change the simple rigging and stresses if installed properly. The ease of use (ie. scandelizing the rig) is a big help to a new sailor. I would be also concerned about jams in the track at the most inopportune moments. Doubtful to happen with hoops. In recently reading "Understanding Boat Design" by Ted Brewer, I can assure you that changing the rigging on any boat other than original design would probably be a lesson in physics I'm not ready for yet. There is usually quite a bit more than meets the eye involved. If we were to lace our sails, it would cost nothing! Mast hoops, Solid, split or beaded would be the next less exspensive choice as most of us are attempting to build these crafts from scratch as much as possible. As you may have seen the plans actually suggest PVC hoops! Cost of sail track isn't all that bad, but I do think that after all the cutting, sanding, screwing, more sanding etc.in the building of the rest of the boat, most folks want to keep it simple. I think tradition has a lot to do with it too. The boats are basically based on the look of Glouster fishing/Catboat/Friendship type sloops. Putting sail tracks on them (for me) would be like lining the outside with big polished stanchions and having the gas grill attached. Not to mention, in Maine I could get shot for this! Some people have made and are making quite a few different changes from the plans as shown. I think more so in the past year than in the two or three years preceding. Some of these changes are well thought out and discussed and some are easy small ones on the fly. We invite all to participate in every discussion of any phase of the building. Sail track might be in someones future...stay tuned!

Cheers,

Bill