Interesting boat

[paul_stewart]

Bob,

You made my day and put a smile on my face.  What a treat.  Thanks for sharing!   The posted photos are too small to see well but the links work great!   Wow.  I just wish I could be there to take a ride on your boat.  Oh well.  Congratulations again on this "interesting" (really really cool) accomplishment.  You should be very proud.

(Those links again are...

http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1JmZao!iR2Cw*a8p5x4jPLNm9GV2lUUCRjlxqEPEFForAdNroTtBK60sJpfaVj26JITaum2JtOqEw%24%24

http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1JmZao!iR2Cw*a8p5x4jPLNm9GV2lUUCRg8S21tyLjOrCvj6XstkLIpWgUozcxp8sMZCmPT7G00EQ%24%24

The nice thing is that those websites let us easily download all those [higher res.] photos for close viewing.  You know I did!)

[sitearch]

Thanks, Paul.

If not mistaken I think you are the builder and capable captain of Dawn Patrol. She is a beauty and was a great inspiration to me to add a cuddy/cabin to mine.

Happy Sailing.

Bob

[maligno]

Thanks for the pictures!

Of course, I wouldn't mind it at all if you posted more.

[JeffM]

Cap't Clayton, I think I speak for others when I say it's time for the full story!  First build, huh?  Dunno--hard to believe.  Anyway: What are your plans for this boat?  How is the cabin laid out, and how is it for useable space?  Why the skirt?  What's with the funny rudder that looks like it thinks it's a daggerboard?  Out with it, man!

[wkisting]

What are the virtues of having the skirt and the vertically-retractable rudder? They look terrific, but they both seem like they would reduce the simplicity of the boat's shallow water performance, requiring greater attentiveness at the helm.

[Hirilonde]

Like Jeff I am most interested in the story behind how you came to make such significant modifications to an already very successful design.  I don't mean this to be critical, but unlike some of the others, the "sugar scoop" stern does nothing for me.  I am way too traditional maybe, but it reminds me of a Benetau or Catalina, and I won't distract from this thread to go into a discussion about them.  Some of the greatest innovations in sailing came about because people had the courage to try something new, so I admire your courage to do that.  So what I would really like to hear about is how you came to want to make such drastic changes, and what your goals in doing so were.

[paul_stewart]

Bob,

I agree with Wes that your "First Attempt" looks terrific.  Knowing that every feature of a boat has its advantages and disadvantages, I'm looking forward to hearing about your insights about the performance of the boat.  

It always becomes painfully clear to me that every 'great' idea I have for our CS20 has associated costs in terms of added weight, complexity, disadvantages, etc.  So almost every 'great' idea I have bites the dust  --it is hard to improve on a good design.  

For example, I like the looks of the splash guards that extend aft from the cabin along the coamings, and at the same time I know that they make for a dryer ride but also prevent the crew from hiking out (sitting on the coaming near the cabin) in high winds;  does that mean you have to feather the sails or reef more extensively than you would if you could hike out?  

Or for example, I like the looks of your transom and the rudder system,  but I often sail in very shallow waters and feel that I would need to have a pivoted rudder blade that rotates up when it strikes bottom  --rather than one that kicks "backward a little" and "upward a lot".   On the other hand when my rudder starts dragging on the bottom I usually have to manually retract it to an appropriate position, so.....  I'd love to hear how your rudder system performs in shallow-water sailing;  and,  do you do much shallow-water sailing?

Please do tell us all about your boat's features and please share your adventures here on the forum.

--Paul

[sitearch]

Hi all,

I appreciate all of your comments. I am learning alot each time. And this is indeed my first build. Let me tell you I am hooked on boat building. My next boat will either be an Outerbanks or a Princess 26. I could sell the Outerbanks in a heartbeat up here.

You are right to ask why fix something that works so well. I absolutely love the CS design, but needed a cuddy or cabin for the weather up here. My wife and I love to go around the millions of coves here in Alaska and explore. The cuddy offers her some privacy for bathroom stops and a nice place for us to store gear and keep it dry. We have a two berths about 8'-6" long that we can put our sleeping bags on for the night. We can sit up in the cuddy near the companionway. As a matter of fact after we had consulted with Graham on the cuddy/cabin he sent me his work up for a cuddy design for the CS17.

The kickup rudder design comes from Michael Storer. I almost built his boat the GoatIsland but optted out for the CS which was more what I wanted. The rudder does indeed kickup but I have never struck anything and we gunkhole all of the time. It is not uncommon for us to be in 24" of water. The rudder is held close to the rudder box with a bungie chord. It is very simple. The real problem with the fold up type of rudder is that it is hard to really keep down. This rudder really performs very well, thanks to Michael Storer for helping me with the design. He is like Graham and loves to help with design questions and willing to give advice along the way to us novices.

Let's see, oh yeah the other question many of you have asked me is about the skirt. The deal with the skirt is that I wanted a motor well like Graham's Princess has, but since the CS is a smaller and lighter boat than the Princess I wanted to offset the weight of the motor and center it in the boat ahead of the rudder. Two other benefits of the skirt are it increases the DWL when the boat heels which improves performance and it provides a nice platform to step on from the dock and a nice platform to get back on the boat from the waters when and if you are in them. If you will look closely at my pictures you will notice that my skirt as built provides a lot of additional boyancy compartnments aft of the transom. Take a look at the pictures again and you will see it. The entire sides and bottom are airtight with inspection ports.

So far the performance has been incredible. We went out on Saturday and we had about 5-7 knot winds for a bit and did some reaching.....the boat gets up on plane very quickly. I haven't been lucky enough to have half gale winds yet but look forward to it next year when I take the boat out on Ressurection Bay in Seward and Ketchamek Bay in Homer. There I will have some good wind to test her out.

Hiking out is possible even with the combing because I stopped the coaming where I would normally sit. In fact I love to sit on the side deck when sailing even when I don't need to hike.

The boat also does very well under motor. I know that sailors don't care about that but it does anyway. We dropped the sails, raised the centerboard but left a tiny bit down and noted just how fast we could get the boat going. We were probably doing about 10 to 12 miles an hour. That probably isn't at all important to most of you down in the lower 48 but it is extremely important here in Alaska if you want to be able to beat the tide which is very severe at times. I may be mistaken but someone here in Alaska built a CS17 out of aluminum and left off the mast and uses the boat for a motorboat because it gets on plane so well.

I hope I have answered some of your questions. Since I am new I really don't know that much, but I know I love my boat and I love sailing in the waters...and I admire and appreciate all of you who know what you are doing and have been blessed to sail for sometime now...

Happy sailing to you all.

Bob

Hull #199 First Attempt

[sitearch]

Oh I forgot to add and someone asked me (maybe it was Paul) about the sails and what was the story there...

No big deal just used sails that I bought from an outfit in Boston. They were very close in dimension to Graham's but since I paid cash for everything along the way on the boat, I was running low on money and got these for a great price. Good to learn on I felt.

I owe information on the topping lifts to Travis captain of the Pilgrim (Princess 22). He helped me understand how to place and use them. My wife loves how they keep the sprits under control when docked or anchored.

I also forgot to add to my story that I was mentored by John Guzzwell's son James Guzzwell. Many of you will recognize that name. John was the first man to sail around the world in a boat 20 feet  and under. He wrote and book titled Trekka. James loaned me the book about three years ago and it wet my appetite to get going. James encouraged me and taught me alot of tricks and loned me his tools. He wanted to help me build but was deployed to Irag just as I started. So I went on alone and when he returned I was glassing and painting...I admit I was worried that he would find my work unacceptable, but to my surprise he was complimentary. He taught me how to build my mast and helped me with more tricks on getting them fair.

I appreciate his help and encouragement all along the way as well.

Regards to you all.

Bob

[paul_stewart]

Bob,

Re. "The real problem with the fold up type of rudder is that it is hard to really keep down."  Would it help to install some lead in the rudder to make it somewhat less buoyant?  Is it a buoyancy issue?

The length of the keel is shortened to accommodate the motor well.  It would have extended to the transom.  Any thoughts about the effects of that?    I would imagine having less keel surface means slightly more side-slip but faster turns.

You extended the cabin roof at the coamings.  Did you do that to provide a dryer ride?  How did that idea arise?

How is it walking around the cabin when you want to go up to the bow? 

--Paul

[sitearch]

Hi Paul,

After talking with Michael Storer on the rudder design I agreed with him that foldup type rudders no matter how you build them just don't stay fixed when the sailing gets faster. The dagger type doesn't have that problem and is aerodynamic in shape which aids in the lift. These are some things a little over my head but I did take his advice. It was also much simplier to build and take off when I store the boat or take in and out of the water. The tiller folds back over the top of the rudder for storage as well. Because I have the motor ahead of the rudder I had the problem of getting the tiller over the top of the motor when tilted up. So the rudder sits high from the rudder box.

You are exactly right about the shortened keel. In the design of the CS as you know the keel is very small near the transom anyway. I have noticed a very quick response to turns.

I have been really happy with the access around the cabin. I have just enough room for foot traffic around the cabin on the side deck which gets wider as you approach the bow. The cabin is engineered with enough structure to support my weight while rigging up. My wife and daughter love to sit on it and lay in the sun when anchored. I added the sliding hatch which I have open most of the time. It is very large 2 ft by 2 ft. The life lines help when trying to get around as well. Although they are only 18" high you can reach them. I love them because they are fun to lean against when cracking along. I like to sit up unless we are in heavy winds when we need to sit down to lower the center of gravity.

The coaming idea came from Graham's Princess line. I just extended the cabin a bit with it so that would make a nice dry spot for my wife to sit out of the cabin with me and yet out of the direct wind. She loves to sit with her back to it like a high back chair feeling secure from the splash. It really keeps the boat dry.

We added several portholes to let lots of light in the cabin. They have come in handy as well for piloting the boat because I can see through them as we go from the stern.

[wkisting]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm having trouble envisioning the rudder kicking up... doesn't it hit the skirt? Or am I misunderstanding something?

[JeffM]

You can sit up in the after part of the cabin?  I wish I could in mine.  How did you manage this?  And, if you don't mind my asking, what is the max. distance between the berth tops and the highest point inside the cabin?  Do you find yourself tripping over the thwart on the way in and out of the cabin?  Is the space between thwart and cabin comfortable for sitting?

[paul_stewart]

Bob,

In regard to your comment that

"...foldup type rudders no matter how you build them just don't stay fixed when the sailing gets faster. The dagger type doesn't have that problem..."

Previously I thought you were referring to your rudder as being of the foldup type but now I see that you refer to your rudder as as being of the dagger type.

I had never heard it called "foldup rudder" but perhaps that is what you would call the rudder I have on our CS20.   However, it has no trouble staying down and fixed when sailing at high speed.  It is equipped with a downhaul line held in a breakaway clam cleat, and it has an uphaul line.

[Peter HK]

However, it has no trouble staying down and fixed when sailing at high speed.  It is equipped with a downhaul line held in a breakaway clam cleat, and it has an uphaul line.

Hey Paul

Could you send a photo of your "breakaway clam cleat". I have used a simple and reliable method with a spectra rudder downhaul line to minimise stretch attached to a "fuse"- a piece of 2mm polyester line in a stainless clamcleat. Lots of experience with other boats tells me that the fuse breaks before any damage and the nonstretch spectra prevents any loss of control of the ruddder under stress. When you do hit something however the fuse breaks and you have to replace it (I can temporarily cleat the spectra line to another cleat if time is a problem). A good, reliable breakaway cleat would be very nice.

Cheers

Peter HK

[paul_stewart]

Peter HK,

Here is the auto-release clam cleat.  Release pressure is adjustable.

http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleat_details.asp?theid2=78

[wkisting]

I use the same cam cleat. Works great.

[Peter HK]

Thanks Paul

[Mike Vacanti]

I use the auto-release cleats on my Junebug's rudder and leeboard. I find that they work just fine. I got them from Duckworks,

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/cleats/sd002570/index.htm

[JeffM]

My rudder stays down fine.  Same system as Dawn Patrol, I think: Duckworks releasing clam cleat on rudder downhaul.  I have a second one on my cb downhaul.  I can beach the boat practically "no hands."  Re-setting the clam cleats is a simple matter of pushing them back into place--work of two seconds.