Toad Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I am about to start bulding the Sissy Do, a basic 13ft skiff from Glen L. We have no marine plywood anywhere close to my rural desert town. What we have is pine plywood and birch plywood. The Pine is horrible and heavy. Can I get away with the birch??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hagan Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Its hard to say if the birch ply will work. Our Wood FAQ has a section on how plywood is graded. Some of the ply is for interior use only, and its likely to delaminate when exposed. All of the birch ply I see here is interior grade, although there are some marine birch panels available in Los Angeles. Some builders use "Exposure 1" panels intended for exterior construction. Waterproof glue is used in gluing the plies together, but they also have voids on the inside of the plies that will lead to rot if the boat is kept in the water for long periods. I used "Exposure 1" ACX ply from Home Depot for my Weekender. Douglas fir and pine plywood will have to glassed to protect it; Douglas Fir especially, as it develops cracks along the face of the panel if not fiberglassed. If the plans are calling for 1/4" ply (or multiples thereof), you can also look for water-resistant underlayment with okume or mahogany faces at Home Depot and Lowes. Its cheap, and is supposed to use water resistant glue (you can cut a 2" square off and submerge it or boil it to see if the glue holds up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted May 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Yeah, I think they have exterior Birch plywood. I really don't want to use Pine due to the weight. I cannot find fir down here. I will keep my eyes open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 I have had similar experiences to Ray's, and agree with him about the material cost to labor trade off. I only use marine grade now. The quality of the exterior grade plywoods has really gone down in the last 5 years, as have most plywoods and lumber from the big box stores. If I were building another small boat that would not be left in the water and tarped while stored, I might consider exterior grade fir, if it could be found. I would then also have to glass the entire hull. If you are going to order marine grade to be shipped, the larger the order the better the cost per panel average will be. Perhaps you could find some other builders to share the shipping and boxing costs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Where are you located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Toad, All previous posts are good advice. The real answer to your question, though, rests with your use of the boat, and how much weight you personally place on cost vs. material grade. Some achieve a great deal of satisfaction out of the quality of materials that they select. Others lean towards the cost-per-fun ratio. For whatever it's worth to you, I built my Vacationer 9 years ago out of acx, and structurally it's fine. The topsides did need some cosmetic face lifting last year, but that was a matter of simple age, unrelated to the material itself. Mine is stored inside in the winter and tarped on a trailer in the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewisboats Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 look for the stuff with the green x's on it. It is guaranteed voidless, waterproof glue and 5 ply 6mm. Its it birch throughout. It is as close to marine grade as you might be able to get without actually ordering it and forking out for the shipping. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Steve is there a brand name for this green x stuff? 8) 8) 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted May 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 I live in Huachuca City, Arizona. I think I will go with marine grade as I really don't have a choice. If you saw the quality of plywood available here you would have nightmares for life. If I owned a mill I would be ashamed to sell it. The birch looks great but I think it is interior stuff. For dimensional lumber I have the whopping choice of some unknown variety of pine and maple, or poplar.....Back in Washington I never had a problem with wood as fir was everywhere. I love fir. Even the exterior plywood was pretty good stuff. Built a few boats out of it with very good results. In rural Arizona things are more of a challenge. Even the choice of glue has me wondering. I want one that can stand up to high heat. The sun here really does a number on any type of exposed wood and sometimes it is not possible to keep a boat covered. I guess I need to start getting my ducks in a row and make some choices. For the framing I guess either the pine, maple or poplar would work but the plywood is going to be the most critical component of the boat. On that I just can't scrimp on. I have never build a boat using marine plywood. Always a first time ay? Has anyone ever tried poplar for boat frames? I have almost aways built stitch and glue boats and while thats great I miss working with wood that a more conventional type of boat provides. Back home I worked mostly with fir, spruce and hemlock. I cannot find it here. I know nothing about pine, maple or poplar...I ask the clerk what types of pine and maple they sell and they just look at me with a blank stare.....Have I mentioned I love fir?....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Toad, the poplar I used in Fla would rot before your very eyes. Check with Bill Olney on the BYYB board. I think he has a contact who can get good marine ply here in PHX at a reasonable price. We're about ~2.5 hours from you so you might save on shipping to pick up here. You might also call some of the lumber yards in Tucson about some doug fir. They had some good stuff when I lived down there yearws ago. Stay away from the home centers; although, Lowes here has some excellent redwood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Stay away from hardwoods in the desert. You'll have better movement control if you use all softwoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Sounds like it is time for a little knowledge on suitable materials for building. Invest a little time on the following website. www.glen_l.com Look at the section on woods for boatbuilding. Well worth the read and the time invested. You should be able to find a lumber dealer in one of the larger communities with a little yellowpage search. I've found good douglas fir at reasonable prices and even marine plywood at most of them. Unfortunately the big box stores sell for the home improvement and contractor trade. Building stationary boxes on foundations. Not a place to find appropriate woods for boat building. Problems: Poplar will essentially fall apart when it gets wet and goes thru a freeze/thaw/heat cycle. Unless it is Tulip Poplar. And that is not what is sold at the big box stores. The poplar they sell is good for making book shelves and cabinet parts for indoor use. Red Oak will soak up water, turn black and rot from the inside out in boat use. White Oak is great. Maple isn't a great material for boat building either but great for cabinets and furniture. Mahogany is fine but can splinter and crack easily when you try to bend it. White Pine boards from the box stores. Not suitable either for boat building. gets mushy. Gleen what you can from the Glen-L site, the information was great 20 years ago and is still valid today. Let your fingers do the walking and ask questions about materials that the lumber yards can get for you. Another site to check out and they will know what you need. www.edensaw.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Cherry, the kind that grows into big trees, is very good for boat building too. Sassafras is excellent to use too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Posted May 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Barry Pyeatt - Thanks for the info. I have read the Glen L site you refered to many times. The main problem is the woods they list are not available in our area. I realize that if I want good plywood I will need to have it shipped. I cannot drive three hours to pick up lumber. It either has to be delivered or sold close by. I will have to make do with the lesser of two evils. I think I will go with the best ponderosa pine I can find for the frames and the best plywood I can afford to have shipped to me. I built a small 8ft boat some years ago using Ponderosa Pine, now that I think back I was kinda impressed with it. Had forgotten about it till I dug out the photo album. The main thing will be protecting the boat from the sun. This is a weekend type skiff and will be on a trailer. I'm pretty sure I will use ST GelMagic for the glue. I talked with the manufacturer and came away impressed. I will glass only the outside of the skiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Ponderosa pine will rot at the mere mentioning of moisture. Strongly consider another species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbrewer Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 I have had good results with tulip poplar. I first used it because I had some long pieces available for rubrails and such. I remember reading Robb White's ramblings, saying he wouldn't build a boat out of anything else. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewisboats Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Steve is there a brand name for this green x stuff? 8) 8) 8) I think it is called multiply but I will check next time I go over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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