tdrown Posted March 1, 2003 Report Share Posted March 1, 2003 February 23rd I went out and bought the wood. I got most of wood (1x12's, 1x8's and 1x6's) and in #2 White Pine (I am a student with out a job right now, so I couldn't go for all teak and mahogany, there is a list of the places I got quotes from on my web site, I bought the wood at Dries, who's prices and quality are pretty good.) I also got ACX plywood from Home Depot (my brother had given me a $50 gift certificate for Christmas). I thought I had read most of the keel section, but I hadn't and I drew pretty bad curves and missed my line near where the deadwood goes on the first board I cut. The other two keel layers where better, I was just warming up on my cutting skills. Also I have 3 identical keel layers, and one should not be identicle, so I need to cut the foremost part off at 50deg for the inner stem layer, and I need to extend the keel somehow for the stern blocks have a place to be glued on. On the other fronts things are pretty good, all my other pieces don't have any problems and things are going along pretty well. What glue did most of you use for the keel? Resorcinol? Remember... I am on a serious budget. I still hope to be in the water by Memorial Day. At my pace now of about 4 hours a night, can I do that? http://tyler.drown.org/boat.html - I have a detailed account of that I did each day with pictures. Besides cutting the inner keel layer when I shouldn't have, is there anything I am missing? (Also I know that the front curve of the keel layers need to be sanded, I will do this once they are all glued together, so they can be even). Thanks, Tyler S. Drown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hagan Posted March 1, 2003 Report Share Posted March 1, 2003 Welcome aboard, trdown! You've gotten over "first cut fever," made your first mistake (and realized its not the end of the world), so the hardest part is over. For inexpensive glue, go with DAP Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue (the label will say its urea-formaldahyde glue in the ingredients). You can sometimes get it in 1# tubs at Home Depot for about $5 ... look in the glue section that is near the paint department where they have carpenter's wood glue. If you can't find it there, there are some on-line places that sell the 4# tub of the stuff ... it runs about $20 for the tub. I bought two during my project, and almost used all of it. Check Aircraft Spruce ... last time I checked they were about $15 for the tub, but another $5 for shipping. Plastic Resin Glue is not "waterproof", in that it doesn't pass the boil test. If you plan to boil your boat, don't use it. But if you're like most people, and the boat will spend most of its time on the trailer, then it works fine. Epoxy is another choice, but more expensive. Like Plastic Resin Glue, its not truly waterproof, but it does pass the boil test and, if thick enough, is close enough to waterproof as the technical difference doesn't matter. You would need about 4 -5 gallons of epoxy to do the gluing and fiberglass the boat, and that will run you somewhere in the neighborhood of $150 - $200 through someone like Raka Epoxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdrown Posted March 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2003 Thanks for the information on the glue, I have to go to the store for a new belt for the sander right now anyway. I hope to get some of the screws too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdrown Posted March 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2003 I went to Home Depot and what they had was DAP Weldwood Contact Cement, who's base is Polychloroprene, they had origanal and non-flamible for 15.97 and 24.97 per gallon respectively. I didn't get that since I saw that epoxy was only a few buck more and I have a contact in the fiberglassing who might be able to get me some. So I ended up geting a pack of 100 #8 Brass 1-1/2" Wood screws for $10.98. I think I will go elsewhere for the rest of my screws, I have the name of shop of just fasteners in the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnie Eaton Posted March 1, 2003 Report Share Posted March 1, 2003 You might want to go to McFeeleys web site for the screws. Get the sq drive deck type of screws. Boxes of 100 or 1000 You will need about 1500 to 2000 screws for the whole job, maybe less. Awhole lot cheaper than any place else. Go to Aircraft Spruce (website) for the glue (weldwood), it's the best price and quick shipping. You really don't need brass screws, some use stainless steel. I used the coated deckscrews from McFeeleys and they work well. You'll like the square drive. One very important thing to remember is always read all instructions two or three times, always measure twice and then again before making any saw cuts. Don't be afraid to ask questions of this board and the BYYB board as well. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hagan Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 I went to Home Depot and what they had was DAP Weldwood Contact Cement' date=' who's base is Polychloroprene, they had origanal and non-flamible for 15.97 and 24.97 per gallon respectively. I didn't get that since I saw that epoxy was only a few buck more and I have a contact in the fiberglassing who might be able to get me some. So I ended up geting a pack of 100 #8 Brass 1-1/2" Wood screws for $10.98. I think I will go elsewhere for the rest of my screws, I have the name of shop of just fasteners in the area.[/quote']The contact cement won't work. And those screws are awfully expensive! Wow! Arnie's advice about McFeely's deck screws is good, and they will work fine. For epoxy, look at Raka Epoxy ... I bought their 3 gallon kit for just about $100. There's also System Three Resins and MAS Epoxy (although it is a really thin mix that I didn't like as much.) But, you can save some money by buying the Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue and using it for all the wood-to-wood joints. Use this link to see what the tubs look like: Weldwood at Aircraft Spruce. Epoxy works great though; plan on two gallons of it for all your gluing needs and you'll be pretty close. Then you'll have to buy more when you glass the boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hagan Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Here's a pic of the Weldwood tub: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt jake Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Lookin' good there Tyler!! Keep it up and you'll be sailing in no time!! Did you really have to sell your car to finance this project?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Great work! Keep the pics coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdrown Posted March 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 NO, the car is still at large IT COULD BE YOUR'S for the right price! Actually I got the car relates to the boat. There is a teacher at my school who monited a study hall I was in, sometime I told him that I was interested in building a boat and he said he had helped build a few and he could help me with where to go and what to do. This was right around the time I ordered the plans, maybe in January. One day driving back from hockey practice it was snowing and when a curve came up in the road I was turning but my car was going strait into the curb. I seriously bent the steel rim on my 90 Buick Century and my car wabled. The next day I was telling the teached that I wasn't sure if I could go through with my boat since I probably would have to pay the repair on the car (at that time I didn't know it was just the rim), he gave me a few names of places to go to to get parts but some one else at the table, a hall moniter, said he had a 88 Buick Century and he wanted to get rid of it. It was mine, all I had to do was jump it and charge it. So I got an entire car basically just for one steel rim and newer tires. But the car does work and runs well. I just got the title in the mail, so now I can sell it. Thanks for all the responses... very useful, Tyler S. Drown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild_Dingo Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Well done tdrown! mind if I call yer "t" 8) ...that last part when combined with "boats" sorta makes me shiver just a tad :shock: Love the photos 8) ...although theres one where I thought mmmm this guy needs a tad of help with safety aspects around power tools tis a worry to see a fine young fella leaving a trail of water or some other liquid leading to a... table saw!! :x Second pic day 4!! ...fair dinkum son! thatsa flamin worry!!! :roll: Water <-> Power definantly = fried "t"!!! :shock: And we dont want that yer hear!! :evil: ...We want yer to keep postin these fine pics of your soon to be fine boat! :wink: The weird part for me was that none of these fine fellas noticed!! and warned yer to think... Safety Safety Safety!!... oh another thing mate that sheds a tad crowded aint it? Oooohhh sorry its winter up there aint it! I was thinkin summer hot beautiful weather but then the photo of Adam showed me the errors of me ways with all that white stuff :? Anyways t ol mate yer doin just fine!. 8) .. now you listen to the ol pharts here and get that boat builded hear? :wink: Best of luck mate and keep at it and postin your progress!! 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdrown Posted March 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 I just checked the real thing... sorry but, thats not water. We painted the floor and the paint has worn away there. We painted the floor white on the grey cement. That room, being a workroom, was not painted thouroughly and we didn't move anything out of the way or were too carefull. The whole basement, even the good parts need repainting, that might be a good project this summer. It's a good thing that wasn't water, we've had a water softener break before and that was no fun to clean up. We have a laundry tub and rarely used washing machine down there as you seen in the picture (we have a washer and a dryer in the laundry room upstair). I'm not using that table saw anymore too, is is very old (my late grandfather's, I believe), had a wimpy motor, and a burnt out blade. My neighbor, who is a general contractor, came knocked on my garage door the other night and lent me a nice new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild_Dingo Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Whew... well thank gawd for that mate! :roll: I was gettin worried there it sure looked like water! :shock: I guess I get a bit paranoid with safety after seein a fella fry once many years ago for just such as I thought you had there... so its a relief to know its not what I thought!! Thank gawd!! :thumbsup: Good luck with her mate!! 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hagan Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Hey Dingo, I didn't even notice what does look like water coming out to the saw. I did see the Wood Shark, and like every sailor and boat builder, sharks of any sort are unwelcome guests. We would do well to heed tdrown's admonition to beware the wood shark! Tdrown, I think you may have found a new way to not only borrow tools, but have people deliver them to you ... with cake! Amazing! I should have told people I was building a boat in the early stages. Did your contractor neighbor see the smoke you were generating cutting on the old saw? Its also good to see someone with a shop space about like mine (some of these guys have shops that could double as fine dining establishments, just put a tablecloth over the tablesaw and start serving the escargot!) The Wild Dingo is right about safety though, you want to make sure before you go to cut a piece of wood with a hand tool that you can carry the tool all the way through the cut, without the cord getting tangled or trapped under your foot (happened to me ... couldn't figure out why the damn thing wouldn't cut past a certain point). A good tool to borrow when you get to the point of evening up the edges of the keel is a power plane ... it will even things up faster and with less dust than a belt sander. Its more aggressive, so you have to be careful, but it takes the wood from all three keel "plies" down to a uniform surface pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdrown Posted March 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 No, my neighbor saw the stern blocks I cut with the old saw... the edges were pretty frayed and splintered. My dad did get the smoke though, and he's very sensitve to smoke, so I had to open all the windows and doors in the garage and basement (our garage connects to our basement, we live on a slight slope) and it was maybe 20 degrees F. I told anyone I knew that knew anything about boats or woodworking and was introduced to a few people too. One of the people I was introduced to does professional fiberglassing on the side and offered me a number of things. Actaully I am emailing him back and forth and I would like to know what type or brand of epoxy have most of you used? I have heard a few good things about Vinylester. This weekend was the last weekend before our foreign exchange student moves to a new home, so we went into Philidelphia, my father and he went to Independace Hall and the Liberty Bell while I read (the boat plans, I have been to Independance Hall a number of times and the tour would be the exact same). Anyway, we went to the seaport museum for the half an hour more it was open. Very interesting, I probably could spend hours in there. I recomend it if your ever in Philidelphia. Anyway, This is what I hope to accomplish this week: -Get the glue (probably epoxy) -Figure our keel problem and glue keel -Cut and Joint Hull -cut and joint deck - figure out what I am going to do for sails - assign small jobs to people who said they would help - start basic assembly (of keel, deck, and bottom) If I spend a few hours a day does that seem reasonable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnie Eaton Posted March 3, 2003 Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 I can recommend ultasails. You can find them on the web. They (him) makes a lot of the sails for Stevenson's boats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hagan Posted March 3, 2003 Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 Vinylester is fine for fiberglassing. It is used extensively in the home-built airplane field, and is what the Stevenson's prefer for glassing. It actually is more waterproof then epoxy (although I think as a practical matter the difference is not that great). It also has adhesive properties, so will bond nearly as well to epoxy to the plywood. I don't know if you can use it for a general wood glue like epoxy (ask your contact about that; I haven't heard it used that way ... the airplane builders I've talked to use Weldwood or Roursicinal - or however its spelled - as the glue and then vinylester as the glassing resin). Polyester resin is a cheaper alternative, but doesn't seem to adhere as well to the plywood. There have been some delamination problems using it, although I've corresponded with several wooden boat builders who have older woooden boats with polyester resin with very few problems. Still, if you can get either vinylester or epoxy from your contact, go for it! You will need to use fiberglass cloth and resin on the hull to prevent checking of the ACX plywood if it is douglas fir. You need about 20 yards of cloth 40" wide or so ... so if your contact has that available for less than $3.99 a yard, that's a deal also. But you are a long way from that part of the project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted March 3, 2003 Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 Couple things to remember, 1) The power tools don't do a thing for you if they don't have the proper a) sanding belt sharp blade c) the correct blade or belt for the application. 2) It is better to wait until you have what is needed to do the job right than to try to make something else work for you just because you want to have it done quickly. 3) Safety first, first, second and always. Nothing more important than making certain you have a safe way to do the job. 4) Don't ever try to use a tool to do something it wasn't designed to do. 5) THE SLOWER YOU GO THE FASTER THE JOB GETS DONE AND YOU WON'T HAVE TO DO IT OVER AGAIN. 6) Craftsmanship is in the hands of the maker, not the tools he uses. It will be as good as the time and effort and patience you put into doing it. Can't emphasize enough for you to read, re-read and visualize all the steps that you need to do and how the parts fit together. Then only cut after you have checked, double checked and then checked again just before you cut. Far easier to do it once (correctly) than to have to do it over and find more material. Lots of really fine work is done on really old equipment, just because it is new and looks good doesn't mean it works any better or even as good. If you have an ACE Hardware Store in the area, they have the Weldwood Urea-resin glue available even if it isn't in stock. They have good prices on screws and good galvanized fitting (I know you are on a budget so you might think along the line of Galvanized instead of bronze or brass or stainless steel.) If you talk to the manager of the store, show him your project plans and get him involved, he will probably give you a discount on the materials that he can provide to you. But you have to be pretty loyal to them to purchase the materials to make this happen. Most of them love working with young people to make this type of project happen. I'm going to follow this with much interest as I built my first boat whan I was in my teens and had my challenges with it too. Didn't have any power tools at all to work with. All hand tools! And they were mostly a lot older than my father. Fortunately, my father had the patience to let me make the mistakes and then show me how to correct them. Don't rush it and it will come out just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdrown Posted March 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 Thanks for the tips, the belt sander belt has been replaced properly now (I haven't really needed it for anything yet though), I have a nice, new table saw with a new, sharp, and working blade at my disposal, things in other realms of tools are pretty good and safe now also, and I have read most of the plans and plan to read them as many times as necessary until I am absolute in my next move. I appreciate the pointers. There is an ACE in Orefield that's pretty close, I will stop by tomorrow or Tuesday. I called them and asked them for plastic resin glue but they said they had none, I will go check things out in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeStevenson Posted March 3, 2003 Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 Congratulations on getting started. That's one of the harder parts of a project. Even though we have done a heck of a lot of projects around here, we still get first-cut fever at times. You're on your way now, so that's good. I'll let Peter know about your site; I'm sure he'll be excited to check it out. Your boatbuilding foray is precisely what we had wanted to help out with The Center For American Ingenuity, our now-defunct non-profit arm. Along that line, e-mail me your address and order particulars and we'll get a check out to cover the cost of the plans. Builders in highschool get free plans. Or we could send a video instead, if you didn't get that. Keep at it...it'll pay off in the long run! These are fun boats, and you're in a good area for exploring. I have to add something: I know polyester and vinyester smell strongly, but whether it smells bad is a matter of opinion. My wife isn't to thrilled with the resin smell, but I really like it. It smells like fun to me. Epoxy stinks to my nose. I just got a starter kit of epoxy things to do a small gas tank for a motorbike, but am going to try brazing it up in steel first. Mike Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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