Norman Colter Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Wes, the tape saturated with epoxy is the real strength of the joint. The fillet ensures the tape makes a smooth transition from panel to panel. Not enough fillet will either force a kink in the tape or allow the tape to pull away at the corner. Too much fillet uses material and adds weight. If you think your fillet lets the tape lay flat you're probably ok. It's a do what suits you deal. And yes, if it has been more than 24 hours rough it up. Hope you make it through the cold weather ok, it might make it to 40 here today. Keep having fun. Norm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Thanks Norm. What about finishing choices for a CS20? I'm planning (tentatively) a bright Okoume deck, but I think I want the hull to be white. The most we would ever spend in the ocean is one week at a time, so I don't think we need anti-fouling additives, but I do think we want one of the hard, durable two-part paints that gives a nice "factory"-looking finish. My main concern is for quality, durability, and ease of use... not cost. What brands do you folks recommend or have used? Interlux Perfection sounds like a nice topsides paint... they also make a VC Performance mix for below waterline... but I'm not familiar with either of them. Just going off marketing descriptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxsailr Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Wes, I used the VC performance epoxy on my Beneteau F210 rudders. The boat was kept on a mooring on lake Anderson and never had a problem. Any growth was cleaned off easy. I do reccomend you spray it on so you can get the right thickness and smoother. I rolled it on and it dryed kind of fast for that. Once it hardens it can be sanded real smooth. Do you still have your other sailboat? Niels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Niemann Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Wes, I used System Three waterbased 2 part paint for bottom, topsides and cockpit on my CS 17 "Lively". I have used it on two boats and feel it is easy to apply and looks great. I apply with roller and touch with foam brush. This paint help up very well on my previous boat Bananas for the 9 years I had her. On Lively I varnished the deck with about 7 coats of varnish on top of 3 coats of epoxy. I used Epheanies (sp) for the first 5 coats and finished off with Captains. In case you have not seen my boat, I have attached a photo of her. If you want more details, just ask. Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Thanks for the finishing suggestions guys. I want to order my paints in the next week or two so they'll be ready when I need them. Dale, I have seen a picture of Lively somewhere before... pretty boat, and probably the color scheme I'll be using for our boat (to be named "Second Wind" since it's our second sailboat). In answer to those who asked above, no we don't have our Pocket Cruiser anymore. We sold her to a very nice family to afford the move to Georgia. It was tough to let go, but we really don't have room for two boats and knew we wanted to build something larger and more seaworthy. The Pocket Cruiser was great for Iowa lakes... I know some folks take them on the ocean, but I wasn't interested in that idea... too rough for my tastes when a steep chop kicks up. Also, we just didn't have room for friends and family aboard (except in the cabin). If we had kept her, I would've cut the cabin off, but I didn't want to get into mods like that when I was itching to build a bigger boat anyway. We ended up getting slightly more than cost of materials for her, which of course gives no payment for our labor... but for us, the labor was part of the fun... and the experience was worth it. And, of course, Anna was intimidated handling the big gaff sail. I think she'll like the cat ketch much better. Of course, we miss the old boat for sentimental reasons, but we have so many kayaks and soon a new sailboat that will perform much better for our needs... no big deal. As for Joe, he is buried in a dark box somewhere... not to be unpacked until we get to the NEXT house (probably we'll buy a home sometime this Fall, if the boat is far enough along by then). Since my fillets cured yesterday in the cold weather, I built them larger today, then seated the fiberglass tape while the fillets were still uncured... worked like a charm. We didn't have 10 oz. glass, so instead of the three layers of 10 oz., we laid 6 layers of 6 oz. (I was going to lay just 5, but figured it was best to double up the strip running down the center, so now we have an extra 6 oz. on our chines.) Once that cures, I still have to tape the vertical bulkhead seams and the centerline, but then the real fun begins. Oh, and I got the rudder shaped and the doublers glued to the cheeks the other day also. Movin' right along... About the hatches in Graham's plans... are they REALLY watertight, or would it be more secure to buy factory hatches? I know the screw-out round inspection hatches are very reliable, as I've used them before... but of course Graham's chest-style locker hatches would be more convenient if they really do seal well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffM Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Probably depends on how you do them, but I remember photos of Graham's capsize test of Loon (I think) in which the hatches had to be taped to ensure they didn't fill. Having said which, store-bought hatches are no guarantee, either: I bought So-Pac hatches because I wanted the lockers to double as floatation. (Also I'm lazy.) During my own capsize test both seat lockers took on a gallon or more in the few minutes they were submerged, and when the boat was righted the lazarette (bulkhead hatch) did too! At first I thought I hadn't bedded them properly, but then found that water was coming past the seals. They even leak rain--a regular annoyance. Now I keep a roll of wide masking tape aboard with standing orders to tape the hatches if bad weather threatens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter HK Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 About the hatches in Graham's plans... are they REALLY watertight, or would it be more secure to buy factory hatches? I know the screw-out round inspection hatches are very reliable, as I've used them before... but of course Graham's chest-style locker hatches would be more convenient if they really do seal well. Even better than the screw in plastic hatches are the ones that have an O ring seal. They don't depend on being screwed in tightly enough. See Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dunsworth Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I would like to throw 2 cents in here about bottom paint. For a trailered boat VC performance painted bottom will be hard to beat. I used it on the bottom and rudder of our Belhaven and super pleased with it. I put around 5 sprayed coats on then wet sanded it with 220, 400 and last 800. I have never cleaned the bottom and it still looks like new. It is so slick that nothing sticks. I did put a coat of good wax on before turning the hull over. I know this sounds corny but its true the bottom was so slick I couldn't set on the hull without holding on, : it was that slick. VC does take some labor but it is a bottom that will take a lot of neglect and abuse. I have trailered her thousands of miles and there is absolutely no sign of it on the bottom. If I was going to leave her in the water I would try VC offshore. Very good stuff. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Thanks for the great replies about finishing products and hatch seals, guys. I've learned not to trust square plastic hatches (factory-made), but the round ones seal fairly reliably in my experience. Of course, I really do like the convenience of Graham's (rectangular) hatches better, and Peter's excellent pictures have given me the confidence they can be made to seal well if built with a lip. I might even try a staggered lip like a Griffith's hatch uses, but it depends how much labor that involves once I get started. Put the fg tape on last night... six layers of 6 oz., which turns out to be two layers more than was needed (I double-checked the plans this morning and saw that interior seams call for TWO layers of 10 oz., not three as I thought), but now I guess I can be confident my boat will survive some heavy water. I'm leaning toward VC Performance bottom paint after Scott's post. Hey Scott... what did you use to spray the paint on? (Or does anyone have suggestions for an affordable paint sprayer? And where to get it?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dunsworth Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I used a porter cable gravity fed spray gun they sell at Lowes. About $70 if I remember right. One very important thing about prep according to Interlux was to use the cleaner prep that they specify. Also I tried to roll it on and was very displeased. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulpilotrmh Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 If you're interested in boat speed, VC-17 is very slippery when wet. It's also easy to apply with a roller and dries in minutes. Interlux Perfection sounds like a nice topsides paint... they also make a VC Performance mix for below waterline... but I'm not familiar with either of them. Just going off marketing descriptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Here's a potentially dumb question... what are the "mast sleeves" made out of? The plans show a mast sleeve that runs from deck to hull, but are they PVC, aluminum... what? (I can't find it mentioned on the plans. The more I look at them, the harder it becomes to "see" the information I'm looking for. I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing another plan sheet, because I did see a note that says "see section on Mast Tube" but I can't find mast tube mentioned anywhere else.) Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter HK Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Wes The mast sleeve is made from fibreglass cloth- wetted out and wrapped around the mast section (which has been wrapped in a few layers of plastic so that the tube when set can slide off. Actually it's a bit harder than "sliding off". I think Tom Lathrop, in another thread, mentioned a new technique of longitudinal strips of plastic under the wrapped plastic which could be pulled out to allow more room for the plastic to slide. Here are photos of my mast tube. Peter HK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 on tapering staves. I cut the mouths first on all staves. That way I can use a hold down on them, plus a finger board to hold them against the fence. Set the blade to a true 45 degrees, pass the stave through, reverse it and run it through again. Actually I cut all of them THEN reverse and run them back through. Then I lay out the taper angle on the staves, and either run them through the band saw, rough cutting the angle, or lay them out side by side and use a circular saw on each one, moving them to the front as each is cut, which uses all the rest as a surface for the saw to sit on. In other words, I cut the one on the far side. Then I hand plane to the line, stack them all together and check that they match,, planing down any high spots. Really takes very little time Sorry, but I've never shot pics of that part of the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Peter... thanks very much for the info. How heavy fiberglass cloth is used, and how many wraps? Charlie... if you cut the mouths before tapering the staves, doesn't the taper take off part of the mouth? Perhaps I'm picturing it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 You cut the taper on the OTHER side!! On the thickness- I made the one for the CS17 about 3/16 thick. As to how many wraps it took, I don't know- I cut strips of cloth and also used some tape- just wrapped it around till it looked thick enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter HK Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Wes said How heavy fiberglass cloth is used, and how many wraps? I'll attach a photo of the relevant instruction in my cs17 plans. Mine ended up a little thin-walled so I just wrapped some more glass around later on- very easy to do. I estimate I used about 2 metres (6.6ft) of 330 gsm (10 oz) cloth. Like Charlie my tube was a bit thicker than the 3/32 of an inch in the plans. Mine came out at 4mm (3/16 is about 4.7mm). HTH Peter HK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted March 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 Charlie... I was thinking the staves would need to be tapered on BOTH sides to prevent shape distortion at the top of the mast, but if I understand correctly, you're saying that's not a valid concern and that tapering on only one side WON'T cause noticeable distortion. Right? (If the whole stave were tapered, I know that would be true, but since only the last 6' are tapered, I keep imagining there would be a strange "pinch" at the tapered area if only tapered on one side of each stave.) Peter, thanks so much for posting that info... it turns out I'm missing another CS20 plan sheet, so I've asked Carla to send it. I guess this means I'll have to build my masts before I can make my mast tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 No "pinch" at all. It forms a smooth taper once you plane it round and sand it. One I built was for a gaffer over in Florida- 22 feet, tapered the top 7 feet. You couldn't tell where the taper started exactly. In this picture I happen to be sitting on where it starts, load testing the mast- note- no feet are on the floor ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wkisting Posted March 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Thanks Charlie, Ray, One last question: In a previous post on the "Making Sawdust" thread, Howard (I think) said the masts are tapered "from the six foot mark up". I presume that means only the TOP six feet are tapered (not that the taper starts six feet up from the bottom and proceeds all the way to the top of the mast). So the mast would be approx 3 3/4 inches in diameter for most of the length, then tapering to 1 1/4 inches for the last six feet. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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