mustangermatt Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Rob mentioned in his new rig thread that he was considering water ballast. I have my own ideas about it but wanted to see if I was crazy, and it seemed like a separate topic from Robs rig discussion. I have experimented with ballasting my cs 17, and found that I didn't notice any real reduction in angle of heel. I did notice the boat wouldn't plane as easily. With one or two of my teenage kids with me, we have a drastic effect on lateral trim just by moving side to side, and in this scenario the "ballast" is useful for handling lines and taking the helm Where I really notice the difference of adding any kind of weight to a Core Sound is motoring with my little 2HP Evinrude. Weight REALLY slows things down. The only time I have considered the Core Sound any thing close to tender is sailing single handed. In this case I have found it more effective to shorten sail rather than add ballast because I reduce the angle of heel and the boat is still light enough to pop up on plane, even with the reduced sail area. The final consideration I have is that when you keep the boat flat with more weight (especially people), you are able to load the rig more without capsizing. This is good to a point, but I think eventually things start to fail if this is carried too far. I know the McGregors use water ballast and it is very successful, but perhaps the ballast is a much greater percentage of the displacement than we could get with cans in the bilge. I think that ratio of ballast on a Core Sound would really detract from the overall performance. Has anyone sailed one of the Sea Pearls, I believe they use water ballast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garry Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Here's a link to a prvious discussion about water ballast. Graham's position seems to be (as I understand it) that it is doable, would require some redesign, and its probably not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 I think you will find water ballast a racing mechanism. Some Mini Protos use fully manual water ballasting. It is a somewhat tedious procedure to scoop up the water, pump it all to weather then deal with pumping over when coming about. It can also be a detriment should you be in a maneuvering situation and caught with a tank full or in case of an uncontrolled or unavoidable gibe. Having weight stuck to leeward when you least want it can be annoying. The Minis use it in heavy air when likely to be on the same tack for seriously prolonged times or in light air to help maintain momentum in sloppy seas (Minis are light and prone to stalling in slop). I can see why Graham would say it probably isn't worth it. I suppose it could be fun if you really were interested in pushing the boat for speed. And if going as fast as possible were a component to each sail's enjoyment. I wouldn't want to give up the space in a daysailer for the limited use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangermatt Posted July 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Water ballast located to windward is an interesting idea I hadn't considered. Maybe a fast electric pump would help with the problem of moving the water back and forth. Or maybe an idea like Robs jerry cans set in racks on the windward side and then carried across. It still seems to me that on a planing hull like the Core Sounds the extra weight would cancel out any gain from the ballast. Maybe ??? Maybe the next time we get a good steady wind I will put the boat on Lake Washington and experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 OR- you could fill bags with sand and move them across on each tack. You could call the boat a uh, let's see- how about a SANDBAGGER ;D ;D ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAR Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Water ballast, like most things in production yachts was a fad that got carried over from the racers. The fad is fading as the newest rage is canting appendages which are replacing them. In a small craft, the trim and balance is so sensitive to crew location that ballast isn't necessary, nor desirable. Fixed ballast locks you into a hole, for which there is little adjustment. Water ballast can open up some options, but not as much as you'd think, primarily because the weight of water isn't particularly much. Pump, manifold, valving and plumbing failures are not uncommon in these systems. Just what a small boat needs, to battle an internal water leak along with boarding water. These "latest and greatest" ideas usually don't last long. Wishbone rigs, Ljungstrom rigs, vortice generators, drilling thousands of holes in the bottom of the boat so air can be drawn in from the cockpit (this actually works well, but keeping thousands of holes clear is a bit of a trouble spot). All of these trends have been racer's attempts to get an edge. Some have worked, others got ruled out, a few adopted, to be abandoned in a few years by the next "latest and greatest" thing to march down the race course. Frankly, I wouldn't consider ballast of any type in a small craft, unless it can provide assured protection from a capsize. Anything less then this, is just a burden the boat must bear, which isn't necessary, nor generally a good thing for the performance envelope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehunter1972 Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 For three summers I had to row a 14 foot aluminum skiff with three people in it (myself included) back and forth to the beach through swell and slop up to rocky beaches. I found the skiff to be great to row by myself, if the weather was calm. However when in a two foot swell and chop it was always better to have a bunch more weight. This allowed the skiff to punch through the swell instead of getting thrown off course. I did this for three summers on the west coast of BC, Canada for a commercial beachcomber. This really formed my ideas of ballast. My current pleasure boat is a 13 clinker fiberglass wherry shape (170 lbs) with a laser 1 main. Since there is no way to reef this sail I put 200 lbs of gravel in 8 bags in the boat. This helps to steady the boat when going through a slop. Since there is no chance this boat will plane I really like the solid feeling that the extra weight would give. One day caught dead down-wind from my launch in a 25 knot blow I beached the boat, took down all the rigging and rowed a mile back to the launch. Even at 400 lbs with myself, gear and boat she got thrown around a bit. What does this mean to me. Well I want a very lightweight boat to trailer, row, and sail until the weather gets up. Then I want some weight in the boat! I wish I could have a little bottle of 'gravity enhancer' with me. Swallow boats from the UK appear to use water ballast to great effect. They are however a very different kind of boat as opposed to Graham's water skimmers (which I love!). http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/ Home - Boat Kits, Classic Kit Boats and Traditional Craft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 OR- you could fill bags with sand and move them across on each tack. You could call the boat a uh, let's see- how about a SANDBAGGER ;D ;D ;D Heehee, but someone beat you to it Charlie, and a long time ago. http://www.schoonerman.com/sailingterms/sandbag.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 ROFL- yeah- I know. That's why I said it ;D ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Blackburn Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Ha... I just put a post on the new rig one to suggest canvas bags of sand.. Should have read this first. I think I will get Gordon the sailmaker to make me up some when I get the sail track added. For the CS 20 I reckon 4 at 15 kg should make a big difference. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordy Hill Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 What ever happened to street urchins? It wouldn't take any time to teach one to scurry up to the windward rail. What would it cost? One, maybe two bowls of gruel? When the wind dies you could drop him off anywhere. If he's homeless you wouldn't have to take him "home" would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirilonde Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 When the wind dies you could drop him off anywhere. The site I linked above doesn't go into much detail, but the "sandbaggers" did just that. There were no rules at that time pertaining to completing a race with the full crew that started it like there is now. Many races were windward/leeward courses. Sandbaggers would start the race with as many crew as they felt they needed for the windward leg (mostly rail meat) and then all those not needed for the down wind leg would jump overboard at the weather mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 OR- you could fill bags with sand and move them across on each tack. You could call the boat a uh, let's see- how about a SANDBAGGER ;D ;D ;D ROFL ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blkskmr Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Dear all, This is interesting. So how did the CS17 & 20 evolve into the MK II and then the MkIII with water ballast? What is the volume / weight of water for each boat and what is the anticipated effect? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Niemann Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Quote from initial post "The only time I have considered the Core Sound any thing close to tender is sailing single handed. In this case I have found it more effective to shorten sail rather than add ballast because I reduce the angle of heel and the boat is still light enough to pop up on plane, even with the reduced sail area. I sail mostly alone an only weigh about 160lbs. I have found the above to be completely true. dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.