Fat Guys and Small Boats

[Arlen]

Hey all ... it's been about, well ... 4 years since I posted around here. Unfortunately, it's been about 4 years since I worked on my weekender as well. Long story, but she's safe, wrongside up. glassed and awaiting my attention when I can get back to her. I'm really getting the itch again seeing a friend (and Vacationer builder) build a strip cedar kayak, and the spring weather is driving me nuts. Really nice to see some friendly names from way back still active around here. Frank, you've done a super job keeping the community alive!

Anyway ... I've got my excuses if ya want to hear them, but that's not why I'm posting. I hope to start puttering again this year. Time won't allow me to finish this season, but I'm in desperate need of some kind of therapy, lol, and I know how good building is for the insides.

I've had lots of time to think, and old concerns still come up. I'm a pretty big feller > 6'-1" and 285 or so and I've always been a bit concerned the Weekender was going to be too small for me. Having had the genuine pleasure of sailing w/ Bill and Nancy Paxton in the now famous open weekender several years ago, it's always stuck in my mind just how roomy it was for three adults. It really was a joy, and is a beautiful boat. Based on that sail, I occasionally decide I'm going to remove the cabin when I get back to building. But then I waffle and say no, no, don't do it. I'm sure I won't use the cabin for much more than stowage, but it's built and looks grand as it is. I did push the bulkhead forward 6" in hopes that would help space wise, but it still seems awfully small. I discovered Dave R1's seats w/o fronts mod a few minutes ago, and think at the very least I might do that mod to give me some leg room, but still ...

So ... on the off chance there might be a few "healthier" folks sailing weekenders, how do you find the fit? Though it's almost definitely some ways off before I get to it, before I glass the topsides I need to make a decision ... either take Bill's lead and go topless, or stick with the path I committed to. I'd appreciate any thought's you could offer.

(BTW, were posts archived or lost some years back? I only find one of my own, and I know I was more active than that, even w/ my failing memory).

[Arlen]

To add to the thoughts above, my experience over the past decade w/ canoeing is that I tend to raise the CG a lot in a small boat. I've looked at a lot of boat pics, specifically open daysailers, but boats of all types really. It appears to me that many if not most traditional daysailers have very low seats. Would there in your mind be an advantage to lowering the seats, regardless of whether I go open or not?

Also, I intended to do a thru-lazarette tiller (shaft thru the aft deck) and have her setup for that, but have decided to abandon that for a more traditional over-the-transom tiller. One reason is to simplify construction so there are fewer opportunities for failure. But this makes me wonder if there is any advantage, or if there might be substantial disadvantage to moving the point of pivot even further aft, in the effort to gain a little in elbow room in the cockpit. That might work against me as it could mean the swing of the working end of the tiller could be greater, though probably not as it would move aft too. It might negatively affect performance though, I just don't know enough to judge. Moving the working end even a few inches aft would seem a worthwhile consideration though, if I'm not messing other things up. I have no desire to have a wheel, even though it does eliminate this concern.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

[kydocfrog]

There have been some earlier comments occasionally about cockpit room. There have also been comments about inadequate breadth and bouyancy at the transom leading to trim problems. I'm only about 195 lb, but even at that sitting far enough sternward for wheel control, I can detetect some trim issues, and I have about 50 lb of lead in the forepeak.

A tiller will help, I think, and I'm probably going to go that way. My real "do I have the nerve to do that" is not to go full open boat, but to truncate the cabin at the first roof beam and then extend the seats forward. That way there would still be a useful cuddy cabin with proportions that still look like a working Friendship. But there would also be more seating room and the basic seating positions might be better in relation to trim. I've got cockpit repairs to do anyway...

DocA and Charlie Girl II

[Bill Paxton]

Welcome back, Arlen! Great to hear from you again.

Here's another idea for getting more cockpit space: eliminate the lazarette. Jeff Tam is a Weekender builder who lives in our area, and that is what he did. I posted two photos of his boat at http://www.flickr.com/photos/58781034@N00/465056899/in/photostream/

Also, let me personally invite you to the Lake Pepin Messabout on June 1-3 http://tinyurl.com/y8v6es. There's nothing healthier than spending the weekend sailing and talking boats. Besides, we haven't seen you since the Yankton messabout in '01.

Bill

[Arlen]

Hi kydocfrog, Yeah, I've considered a cuddy cabin as well. But I'm not as fond of the looks, and if I took the leap to hack into the cabin I'd probably go "all the way" and remove it. I'm quite fond of how my boat looks, so I'm really hesitant, but I'd rather do it now than find I need to later and have to undo a finished boat.

Hey Bill ! Great to know you're still so active in the small boat community. Yankton has provided me with many great and grand memories ... I sure miss Norm, his passing was a huge loss to all wooden boat lovers. I can't believe Yankton was so long ago, how is it possible 6 years have passed? As enthusiastic as I was then, it's really a shame. But life kinda threw me a few curves as it tends to do, and I had to re-prioritize a bit and put some dreams on hold. My weekender has been sorely neglected, though I do sill visit her once in awhile to keep in touch and ensure she's still protected and safe, and she is in fine shape. (My brother likes to pester me w/ a little song ... "Arlen's got a boat but it don't float, do da, do da" ... lol)

Thanks for posting the pics. While removing the lazarette would definitely provide more space, it's probably in the wrong direction. Moving my bulk further aft will likely do as Kydocfrog suggests and affect trim. When I go canoeing, my canoe partner is about 120 lbs lighter than I am. We do the equivalent of wheelies on the river - he's lucky he can touch the water I do expect to add ballast in the forepeak as needed to counter that as best I can.

I'll definitely consider a trip north. Not sure I can pull it off, but it would be a welcome relief from the past few years of nothing but work, work, work. I really need to get a life again.

[Arlen]

Hi Ray, great to hear from you again too!

Thanks for the comments, especially on the instability forward, and your experience w/ the cockpit size. I remember watching Scott Cozad and Konrad take Shirley Ann out for her first (or second) inaugural sail and it did seem really touchy. Any suggestions beyond ballast to counter that?

I understand the loss of interest, I've waned on that end too for awhile. Not really loss of interest, just different priorities, but it happens to us all.

[capt jake]

That instability is only a problem at dock. While underway it is pretty solid up there. My sailing buddy is a big guy and he goes forward while underway with no problems.

[Tim Diebert]

That instability is only a problem at dock. While underway it is pretty solid up there. My sailing buddy is a big guy and he goes forward while underway with no problems.

I agree Jake, but get him to try that when he is alone....

A heavier guy could go forward as long as there is another chap at the other end of the teeter totter.

I just stopped in to ask a question.....back to the main page for me.

Cheers All!

[capt jake]

I just stopped in to ask a question.....back to the main page for me.

Nice to hear from you again Tim! And the question.......?

[Arlen]

That's really good to know Jake, thanks. Do you feel super crowded with your bigger buddy onboard?

[Arlen]

Yeah, I'm not modifying the hull at this point. I really wish I'd followed my initial impulse and scaled the design up some. But I didn't, and that's that. I doubt I'd have gotten as far as I did before having to stop had I taken that path anyway, so it's probably all for the best. I know Mike S argued that there is plenty room for 3 "full sized" adults, but I've just never bought that ... though I'm sure he's had plenty of experience to back that up.

Sounds like some experimentation with movable ballast once I'm finally underway is called for, then make it permanent once I find the best compromise.

[capt jake]

Two on board is comfortable; three becomes a little awkward, 4 can be done, but if the winds pick up it gets really dicey.

[Arlen]

I really appreciate all of the input folks.

Any comments on the potential impact on performance if I were to move the pivot point for the rudder back just a few inches if I decided it would help with room in the cockpit? I just thought of that when I was typing this morning, and haven't thought it thru. I wouldn't think it would matter all that much, but I'm no naval engineer may be way off base with that guess.

How about my thought of dropping the seats 4" or so to lower the CG(assuming the seat fronts are eliminated)? Will that help at all with stability or will it make the boat less comfortable to sail considering the room issues?