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YOUR LIFE or A B I G RADAR SIGNATURE


Weekender SNUPI Builder

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Arnie,

I don't know whether you'll be sailing where the BIG BOYS sail or not, but some words of advice from somebody who has grown up around FOG, both coastal and on lakes !

(1) ... Coastal fog can roll in on you at speeds equal to AND greater than the the speed you're sailing! Not only that, fog has a nasty habit of cutting off your route to shore with NO WARNING !

(2) Boats that are navigating in foggy conditions are not always engine powered ... they could be under sail... you'd NEVER hear them coming, unless they are sounding their bell or horn as required ~ Power vessel , one long blast every 2 minutes ~ Sailing vessel , One long & two short blasts , every 2 minutes ( Canada)

MORE IMPORTANTLY, your safety will rely on the captain of that vessel being on his toes, NOT having his 4th RUMSICLE, watching his radar screen and NOT JUST PAYING ATTENTION TO HIS GPS or COMPASS !

(3) Your "Radar Signature", like your fog horn, , wants to be as BIG AS YOU CAN MAKE IT , so another vessel, perhaps silently under sail & incapable of a quick avoidance manoeuvre, has every extended minute you can provide him, to avoid smucking and PERHAPS KILLING YOUR OR YOUR LOVED ONES ! The better the reflector, the BIGGER the signature you put on somebody's radar screen !

A handfull of crumpled up tinfoil stuffed in a mast hole JUST DOESN'T BLOODY WELL CUT IT ! As a matter of opinion, such a childish stunt is nothing short of a stupid trick some land bound brainless idiot, who has never sailed in fog or any other weather, would suggest , and anybody relying on such stupidity deserves to get their stern clipped !!!!!

Such a stunt is right up there with using a couple of air filled zip-loc bags in your pocket for a PFD !

You can get ZERO VISIBILITY FOG even on a lake, however the saving grace is that there isn't quite the likelyhood of another vessel sailing in your course.

I've been on motor vessels in severe fog conditions, and if you want to experience what it's like, blindfold your self and go for a sail !

Sooooooooo , GET THE PROPER RADAR REFLECTING SYSTEM and A FOG HORN for your boat, they're cheap!

"USE THE FOIL WRAP FOR YOUR SANDWICHES" ! :evil:

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I know the reason for this post is to put safety first and to insure that someone dear to us is not hurt or lost and I am all for that. The post did sound a little harsh. I only say this because Arnie is a friend of mine and a very decent fellow who only has the best of intentions. If I was Arine I might take offence to some of the phrases in your post. I am not trying to be critical of your choise of words I am sure you said what was on your mind and that's ok. Maybe I am just being too sensitive, I hope this is the case. If so just shine me on, my X does! :D

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Actually the idea for aluminum foil inside the mast is an idea put forth (and used by) Lin and Larry Pardey. They have used the idea on both of thier boats during the 32 years they have been full time cruising. I think they are now on their third go around.

However, they don't advocate just cramming a handful in there. In "Self Sufficient Sailor" they talk of crumpling the foil, then forming a long roll and putting that roll inside the mast. They also point out that it won't work on an aluminum mast.

They indicate they show up as a vessel about three times their size.

Hard to argue against all the rest. Really does get thick out there and you can lose bearings very quickly. Another really good argument for a continuous DR plot too.

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Thing is, we don't have the fog roll in (typically). Arnie is inland and won't be bumping around wiht the 'big boys'.

All good information, and I am certainly receiving it.

I did notice on my last trip to the East that the fog does roll in on you folks rather rapidly!! Here on hte West coast, the fog is typically in the morning. It may burn off or may get less pronounced. But, it typically does not sneak up on you.

I have an old piece of PVC, maybe if I blow into it, 'HOOOOOHAAAA". maybe that Will work?? :D :D Or, for the "it's all wonderful life " crowd,

'HEEEEHAAAA!"

I mean no offense buy your post Graeme. I just couldn't resist! The fog thing is true here though. :) :)

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I have spent the last seven years testing radar systems for the DoD and FAA and can possibly help with this discussion. The fact of the matter is that the tin foil will serve as radar reflector within the wooden tube of the mast. The return will be better if the foil is rolled into a smooth tube prior to inserting it into the mast. A piece of foil fixed with tape around the mast will also work in an emergency. Two sections about a foot apart will give a very large RCS at marine bands. A crumpled mass of foil will scatter the return and diminish the apparent RCS of the boat; however, it will still provide a larger return than just the boat alone. While fog is a hazard, it is by no means instant death for the small craft skipper. Fog never just slips in. A careful watch on the temperature and relative humidity will accurately predict the formation. When the temp falls through the RH fog can form rapidly in still air. In the aviation world this is a big deal so we watch it closely both before and after takeoff. If you are in the shipping lanes with our little boats and the fog overtakes you, smart money will get to the edge of the channel or better yet get out of it. As I said, the foil is a work around for not having a reflector but not a very good one. Boat-Us has manufactured reflectors starting at $22 US and they go up from there. Worst Marine and Boater

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I APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN OFFENDED BY MY "RADAR" REMARKS !

I have seen sooooo many idiots both on lakes AND on the coastal waters of Nova Scotia, running stupid ....., that is to say, NO PFDs, NO LIGHTS, No safety gear of any sort, SCREAMING / BITCHING about the Coast Guard when they get stopped & checked ! However, these are the same turkeys that the Coast Guard and private boaters have to rescue when they get caught "Dead in the Water".

I've towed a couple of these half drunk party - - - - - - -'s ashore over the years, then received smart-ass thanks in return ! On one occasion, about 7 years ago, late at night returning from Mahone Bay to Chester basin, we spotted what looked like a series of small but short lived fires, from a direction where there was no land , i.e., the ATLANTIC !

I had lots of fuel on board, the seas were dead calm, we were equipped with all the proper running lights, compass VHF , cell phone., etc, PLUS, I'm familar with the bay, so we motored out some 3 - 4 miles off shore and found "A bunch of well lubed mouthy twits", in a sailing dingie, 16 - 18' , with no motor, no oars, no lights, no VHF ... and NO WIND , but LOTS & LOTS OF BOOZE ! They were tearing up the cardboard beer boxes and burning them for FLARES !!!!!

They didn't ask me if I would tow them in , Rather they TOLD me , not only that I WAS GOING TO TOW THEM IN , but that I WAS GOING TO TAKE THEM TO LUNENBURG HARBOUR , some 10 miles away from where we were headed !

We called the Cdn Marine operator , ( Coast Guard), and gave them our location and what was going on. They said they would have somebody meet us at Chester Basin !

Well........ I put THEIR line on my ski bar cleat and proceeded to Chester Basin. Every once in a while we could hear somebody ranting something, but dang it, for some reason they just couldn't seem to make themselves heard from 40 ' away and over the purring of a 140 Merc ! A couple of times they tried to pull themselves up closer to my boat, but a few more rev's on my "Merry Merc" soon discouraged that thought !

I towed them to within 10 feet or so of the Chester Basin wharf at around 11:30 PM and told my buddy to lift the line ! I circled around to hear what they had to say, only to find there was a fist fight going on in their boat ! ...Seems there was some "heated debate" whether they should put a pounding on us for not taking them to Lunenburg or thank us for towing them in off the Atlantic in the middle of the night ! FIRST, they had to pound the bejabers out of each other !

Funny as hell to watch the Officers help those really "Hammered guys stumble out of their boat & up on the wharf , and into a waiting pair of "cruisers" !

2 POINTS :

(1) I did get your attention .......and ....I DAMN WELL DO Take Marine Safety DEAD SERIOUSLY ! As seriously as I took flying safety ! I flew privately from 1964 - 1989, VFR / IFR / airbatic / float & wheel ,single engine ratings.. 1800 hrs

~ and MOST IMPORTANTLY, big water or small water ~

(2) Do you really want to really want to put yourself & loved ones at risk for the sake of a proper portable, foldable and efective $35.00 radar reflector ?

Oh yes, while I'm ranting, A VHF , or even a CB , ANYTHING but burning beer boxes, ..... can also save your bacon !

There are areas where we all sorta cut a corner or two constructing out boats. The one area we should NEVER cut corners, ....IS SAFETY ! , Particularly when we're talking such a petty amount of money !

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You're absolutely accurate about the "Sneaky Fog" on the north east coast, Ray ................

I have been motoring around the islands of Mahone Bay, sunny day, just idling about, looking at moored boats , summer homes and just plain poking around enjoying the scenery, only to come out from behind some islands to find a fog bank rolling in and for all intents & purposes, blinding the route to "Home". Usually, you can power up and beat it to shore, but most times you go in "crawl" mode, blow your horn every 2 minutes and plan on taking your time !

This works if you you know the waters very well and basically do the dead rec. navigation thang ! Other than that, it's find a mooring spot and wait out a wind shift or plan on spending the nite !

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my eyes re buggy!! This is very small to read. I know it it that same font, but when i am tired... To, small!! :)

Frank, do I have to change resolution?? Or, don't say it, another presacreption?? The glasses won't help, I might try changing hte resolution. Tis is WAY TOO small!!

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my eyes re buggy!! This is very small to read. I know it it that same font' date=' but when i am tired... To, small!! :)

Frank, do I have to change resolution?? Or, don't say it, another presacreption?? The glasses won't help, I might try changing hte resolution. Tis is WAY TOO small!![/quote']

The problem with stylesheets is that they do take control of the font size. This is a 10pt sans serif font (arial, helvetica or generic sans serif). Because of the stylesheet, the browser "larger type" command doesn't seem to work.

I plan to add a "large type" version of the stylesheet which you could choose in your profile, but I don't know how it would format on the screen until I try it (the text would be larger, but I don't know if it will word wrap the same). Maybe I can get that done this weekend.

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Yup Craig, the east coast fog DOES GET SEVERELY LUMPY ! I've been out on a friend's 32' Cape Islander, when you really had to strain to see the bow !

Ray's not joking when he states that if you wait for the ideal, "No potential fog" conditions, you might only get out on the water a few times ! I think Ray will agree, that we "Down-easters" have been brought up with it, respect it, and have either learned how to deal with it , or you'll find the names of those who didn't carved in a slab of marble on a hillside !

I guess a person has to experience "blind" Down-East coastal fog to appreciate the totally unnerving feeling of cruising along at 2 or 3 knots, straining to see something, ... anything, and SUDDENLY ......have a shoreline, wharf or another moored boat appear at your bow ! This is one reason I ALWAYS locked my O B motor down in foggy conditions ...... When I wanted "brakes" & a shot of FULL ASTERN POWER, it was there !

Quite frankly, Craig, I'd sooner fly IFR anyday, ( Even without GPS), with the registered flight plan, in constant in-flight contact with the various control areas / zones, plus for the most part being up there with other people that were also not treating white-out as a lark......... than in sea fog with basically untrained & ill equipped navigators ! I suppose , (I Hope), the time will come when it will be illegal to sail in zero visibility unless you are properly equipped and licensed , the same as aviation !

Speaking of which, I'm always amazed that a VFR pilot in the US can fly above the clag without an IFR rating & panel. In Canada, it's min. 500 feet below for VFR raings or you must have an IFR rating/panel !

In all probability, Mr. Kennedy would be alive today if either he had held his IFR rating, or been experienced enough to realize he was flying into extremely dangerous IFR Haze conditions !

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The Fog thing might be kind of relative. Most people dislike fog if they have to travel in it, on land or at sea. It's hard to say who has the "worst fog" unless of course you get to travel quite a bit and see all the fog types and get to compare them. Let's compare it with snow. Here in Maine (or Nova Scotia) we might say it isn't to bad, we might only get 4-5 inches. Say the same thing down in North Carolina happens, or even half that in Northern Florida, and all heck breaks loose. It kinda depends on what your used to, and what you prepare for. I'd be assuming here, but I think quite a few average boaters look for rain or sun. They don't have the foresight or interest to look further into the weather and check winds, clouds, dew points, water temp etc. In a perfect world we would predict our weather better as Craig mentioned. Fog is different everywhere you go. I don't have to be a meterologist to say that. Maybe what causes it, is always the same, but since we have different weather patterns and temperatures, fog type and thickness and incoming speed will vary as well. Different people will react differently to the exact same fog situation depending on what they are use to, or not used to. I have been out on commercial fishing boats here in Maine and I always thought we had the worst fog, fact is, a few years ago I got into a fog along the Florida Panhandle and to this day Iv'e never seen anything like it, real bad. Something that is especially true up here in the NorthEast is, you may know the weather and the area, but the guy sailing next to you doesn't. The best thing to do is just be prepared. Go ahead and stuff the mast (or roll it in) with aluminum foil and hope the Pardy's are right (I enjoy their books too...), but just to be on the safe side, keep one of the little fold up reflectors, as Ray has mentioned, in a locker, and hoist it up if you get caught out there. The Fog issue is not trivial, but the cost of being safe is!

My 2-cents!

Good Luck!

Bill

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Ray can't get all the credit for that one....I have heard it before. Although I can't pinpoint where I heard it...Ray, fess up..or it will drive me crazy. I'm almost sure it was from real experiences but might be a Bert & I retold story?

Bill

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Graeme has it!! He is my official replacement, when I am absent (or absent minded)!

Now, Grame, can ou type an badly as I?? If nbot yoiu will have to ait out for a bit!! :) There are others who really want to typr as badly as i do!!

:D :D :)

I plan to add a "large type" version of the stylesheet which you could choose in your profile, but I don't know how it would format on the screen until I try it (the text would be larger, but I don't know if it will word wrap the same). Maybe I can get that done this weekend.

Thanks Frank!! That would help the surfing a bit!! I was away for a day or so, and was amazed at how small it seemed to me! Probably just me ole eyes!! :) :)

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Graeme, I have no problem you screaming a bit loud about marine safety, but I do know about safety as well as you. I grew up in Everett, Washington, one of the foggest places in the US. I also know about flying safety with over 5000 hours as a military pilot, both fixed wing and choppers. I spent my younger days with the Sea Scouts (7 yrs) sailing in Puget Sound in a 50 foot schooner. The idea about foil in a mast does work. Maybe not as well as one from West Marine but better than none at all. Have a nice day. Arnie Eaton, USAF Retired

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