Old Florida Boats

[Pipefitter]

I have been searching thru many pages of google looking for traditional florida skiffs,boats,boat building,net skiffs,you name it. Florida maritime history amongst many other terms I could affix. I came across this picture from the keys. Is this a Florida boat? A type of sharpie?

I found an everglades poling skiff which looks to be a cross between a canoe and a pirogue but surely there has to be others. Does anyone here know of any links or other information?

[Dave Fleming]

'eyrster' was just down your way, what coast I cannot recall.

He spotted a number of local types.

Send him an email.

[Pipefitter]

I was at the Cortez(gulf coast) boat show briefly...met oyster but didnt get a chance to see the museum.There was pole skiffs where I grew up and some we found abandoned that we would "fix" up and use them for fishing in Lemon Bay. Me and a buddy poled one 11 miles one night with the tide and 11 miles back with the opposite. Grass flats lined either side of the intracoastal and you could continuously catch trout all the way down and back. I just don't recall any real specialized boats over the net skiffs and never paid much mind to the sail boats.

Maybe I'll give the guy at the museum an email and see if he can help me out.

[Greno]

There is a wonderful book published called Gladesman about Glenn Simmons who grew up in the Everglades prior to being a National Park. Plans for a Glades Skiff are in the appendix in the back of the book. I have been meaning to throw one together for some time. The skiffs will reportedly float on dew.

[PAR]

That looks to be a sharpie. They were built with square and rounded transoms and were descendants of the Carolina skiffs, which were related to the Chesapeake Bay tonging sharpies, which directly descended from the New Haven sharpie of similar employment. They evolved quite a lot over the generations, from hearty working craft to racing versions. They are a surprisingly attractive boat, particularly the rounded stern versions. I've seen plans for "sandbagger" versions that have a bow sprit half as long as the LWL, sticking out the front of the boat, with clouds of sail area, outriggers for the main sheet, square sail and double sprit booms. The more rationally minded kept them as cat ketches, with local variations to the rig setup, such as vertical reef points or "club and sprit boom" arrangements. The traditional ones usually have file planked bottoms and some a "built up" fore foot of much larger timbers, hacked to shape. Modern materials, like plywood and epoxy, have brought this fine boat back and can be put to good use in a new sharpie build, with a long life span.

Generally the sharpie is a light, fast and wet boat that usually was half decked. Length to beam ratios were on the order of 5:1 at the rail and 6:1 on the bottom planks. They also were know for low and springy sheer which helped their good looks a great deal. The racing versions of these boats (turn of the 20th century) would have near plumb side planks (very little flare) and working adaptations would carry a fair amount of flare. Rigging on all but out and out racers was very simple and kept light weight. The fastest way to wreck the performance of a sailing sharpie is to raise the sheer or add weight.

[Guest Oyster]

Par, is it possible that you copied part of your reply from another source? I would like to address a couple of issues but would like to know the context of several statements included in your reply. Is there a link?

[Pipefitter]

I saw the glades skiff and it looks to be a balancing act with the push pole always keeping one's self right by keeping the pole on or near the bottom. Like narrow pirogue maybe.

I thought the blue boat in the above picture looked rather nice in it's own way. I know of the mullet skiffs here,the powered tunnel hull ones with the outboard up towards the front but I cant even find pictures of those online. Just hard to believe with this much water and maritime history as this place should have ,that the information be so limited. Is like with the influx of the transplanted fellow countrymen and the ways things have changed here so quickly, that not only are the old Florida crackers rare but it seems like the history went with them.

I would like to build Florida boats for Florida. Louisiana has it's pirogue and Lafitte skiffs ( dredge shrimpers are in common with here),Carolinas

have several speacialty boats as does the rest of the eastern seaboard but surely,Florida must have their share. Sofar,I have found only airboats and information to pre cracker history with the Spanish ships.

[Pipefitter]

I emailed the museum in Cortez. Seems that they are feeling the developmental destruction of the waterfront there in that sleepy town as well. I did find or will find out more about the Florida boats with a visit to the museum soon.

"Hi Paul, Is there any chance you could get down here for a visit? We have some information about traditional Florida watercraft including Spritsail Skiffs, flat iron skiffs, Sharpies in a variety of lengths, Key West Smackies, and Bahamas style round bottom boats of the sort that were used on the Gulf Coast up until the 20's. I think you'd find the shop to be an interesting place, too. I couldn't agree with you more about the destruction of the waterfront. We're in a pitched battle to try to stop that from happening here and it is a real fight. There's so much that's already gone. If you can come down on Saturdays Bob Pitt is here and can talk to with you about local boats. If you can make it on a Monday through Friday I'm here to do the same. Roger "

They seem like nice folks and the reply was prompt.I will head down there when my skiff is done and do some fishing while I am at it.

[Craig]

Try this for typical NW Florida Mullett Boats. Scroll down for the green one. Most up here have the motor set further aft about amidships and may have a small helm station pedastal. ~20- 24' long, with about 8 or 9' beam.

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/outings/florida/index.cfm

[Pipefitter]

Why thank you Craig. The green mullet boat was typical from where I came from. That one seems it has seen some use. Lots of good pictures on that site. I remember when knowing people that fished for mullet that sometimes the market would be full,forcing the fish houses to put the fisherman's catch on consignment. A good price for mullet back then was around .60/lb. They did alright until alot of people started coming from other places jumping on the enterprize. There came a market for the roe and the fish would be thrown away by the dumptruck loads. We would get a call from the place we bought mullet from for smoking saying we could have as much as we wanted for free. The fish were in mountains with their bellies sliced open about to be taken to the landfill. With smoked mullet they are cut down their backs with their heads left on to keep them from curling up in the smoker and to keep the fat from running out. I remember being amused by the fact that the mullet was the only fish around here to possess a gizzard so we used to remark that it was the true chicken of the sea.A true Florida smoked mullet will melt in your mouth compared to the shoe leather fish jerky some places(mostly restaurants)peddle.

Thanks for the link.

[PAR]

No Mike, I didn't look up the sharpie type, I'm pretty familiar with their history. I sailed them quite a lot as a boy, on the Chesapeake and have been a fan ever since.

It's generally thought the Florida sharpies were developed locally from the Carolina versions, which migrated south from the Chesapeake, of which those were an evolution of the Connecticut tonging sharpies. There has been speculation as to where these may have come from (the Dutch maybe), but none with any reliability. The history of these types of working craft is difficult to pin down. Development was done as the needs arose, usually locally, modeled after another successful type. I have plans for several sharpies, most very old, by Chapelle, Monk, Gardner and a few others. Most notable modifications were not recorded, unless needed for class rules requirements. The racing versions are pretty well documented, but this dates back only to the turn of the 20th century. Before this things get pretty sketchy. There are several old books and magazines that offered plans or had ads for newly constructed sharpies and these have been of some help sorting out the model development.

As a kid I remember seeing these racing machines with double booms and square courses on the main stick. These things were weird looking and had a small platoon for a crew, but they flew. I also remember real racing log canoes with 12 guys hanging on to a small patch of pole, 8 feet to windward of the rail, just to hold them down. The knock downs were often and spectacular.

As to dimensions references, I used the traditional Chesapeake sharpie arrangements. A classic H. Chapelle 24'er was in WoodenBoat recently, full set of plans (design review section), where these general dimensions (according to his research) was also mentioned. Many have been made with much different length to beam ratios then what Chapelle thought was proper for a sharpie.

The next time I'm in the Tampa/St. Pete area I'll have to stop by. I was there just a few weeks ago. I would suspect many of the local fishermen don't go online to show the world their dwindling ability to make a living. The same was true a century ago when sail was being pressured by power for fishing. Many interesting, very specialized local types have been lost, left to die a slow death next to an abandoned shack at the water's edge. The men that stayed in the industry eventually made the switch to power. Those that left, moved on, likely leaving the boat to a creditor or other fishermen, if not to rot and die. Recording these models has had a very few individuals (Chapelle and Gardner are exceptions) to take up the task.

Having done some work for the few museums (latest was the Friendship Museum in Maine) that have a waterfront feature, funds and personal for this work is difficult to say the least. Most love the idea, but donate their disposable income to Sea World, Disney or other seemingly enlightening entertainment, rather then trying to preserve what's left or record the past history of the area and it's notable working craft. Keep up the struggle Roger, we need you.

I've smoked my share of mullet and it's not hard to do and sweet as it gets. Almost a good as wrestling a snook on bass tackle, then enjoying the benefits of being the victor.

[Pipefitter]

On the above picture of the blue boat,I dont see a place for a rudder. Is this a row boat?

[Guest Oyster]

Hum, sharpies-skipjacks-jetskis-epoxy goop and plywood, all can have the simular affects on boat boards. :wink: But as kids, sometimes the details were not part of the equation of having fun, too.

But since you bring up Chappelle in your posting, let me address something that is generally known but is quite to the contrary to your original statement.:

Generally the sharpie is a light, fast and wet boat that usually was half decked. Length to beam ratios were on the order of 5:1 at the rail and 6:1 on the bottom planks. They also were know for low and springy sheer which helped their good looks a great deal. The racing versions of these boats (turn of the 20th century) would have near plumb side planks (very little flare) and working adaptations would carry a fair amount of flare. Rigging on all but out and out racers was very simple and kept light weight. The fastest way to wreck the performance of a sailing sharpie is to raise the sheer or add weight.

The working sharpies, or the flat bottom ones, given your ratios, were never built liteweight, if you go back to the Chappelle plans for scantlings. On another board, there was also a discussion that brought into play Gerr's method of figuring sizes for hulls, which did not walk lock step with Chappelle. As you well know, hicking boards was the order of the day for most racing hulls even built with scantlings that showed almost 20 percent increase in thicknesses, not counting the oak framing, giving the original ones more than what is being used today.

Addressing the evolution of these boats, up and down the coast, you can to go back to the Huguenots when you also address some simular designs an rigging, which did originate from many European ancestors.

Smoke mullets? Yes I was eating smoked mullets, salted and processed for the winter in mullet buckets, wooden minuture bourbon barrels, when many Florida fishernmen were scorning them as nothing more that fish bait selling a live single fish at a starting price of three times the wholesale price, or trolling bait brined, at around 2.50 per fish, in vacumn packed containers.

Well folks this is it for me. My spare time is now requested and needed in other areas, yes boats will be part of the day. I will be signing off the internet forum for other ventures for now. You guys take care. E mail and pm features are still up and hope all of folks have a nice and enjoyable spring and summer with fair winds and cold beverages. Cheers for one and all.

Life sometimes deals us all a big curve in the road, with no road signs to alert us.

[Craig]

Yes Pipefitter I would, by the photo, suggest this is a row boat. She looks to weigh about 5lb less than a brand new truck! Up home they would row this on the smaller lakes and put a one lunger on it for the bigger waters. Keep the paint up and they would last for ever. Folks would make these and leave them at the lake or pond for anyone to use. I thought sharpies were all double enders??????

[Pipefitter]

I found a net skiff (poling version with no well or place for an outboard) and it was about i the state of the blue one pictured above with paint missing though. The frames were bolted to the floor timbers with galvanized carriage bolts (still quite galvanized despite the skiff's age) and although heavy,I could run out 300 yrds of net with an 18ft bamboo push pole. After not being claimed for 30 days,the marine patrol let me keep it. Crude,heavy boat but what a fishing machine. That boat had me in the best physical condition of my life especially when the noseeums where in persuit.

And where the heck you going,Oyster?

[PAR]

Yes, you're quite right about some of these antique boats being heavily constructed, but this is by our standards. I have a set of Chapelle plans that show a 20' sharpie with 5/8" white pine bottom planks and 1/2" topside planks. Yet another sharpie by Gardner of similar size (18') shows 3/4" pine both bottom and topsides. The same is true of the general scantlings, some being much heavier constructed then others. The Gardner boat shows a 4.2:1 bottom beam to length ratio, compared to Chapelle's desires of the 6:1 for the perfect sharpie. Chapelle's boat also has a fixed rudder, where the Gardner had the traditional vertical retracting deal on a shaft in a port. Both look very sharpie to the casual observer, some may consider the Chapelle more traditional, others may think the Gardner easier to sail.

Most of these work boats where not intended to have a long life, rather they were used up pretty quickly and sold, when a new boat was built in a couple of years. Now, we can't think of disposing of a boat we labored over in a few years, but to them it was making a living in a leaking, wearing out, old boat.

Even finer, more complicated examples of work boat, like the Friendship sloop, which took a long cold northern winter to construct was considered spent after a season or two, then sold in favor of the new one in the boat shed, behind the beach shack or at the local builder's place. Many built their own each year, during the winter, selling at the end of the season.

We have better methods and more material choices, that can make a lighter, stronger and more water tight boat. In fact, we're much more interested in building the boat from good material, that will last, possibly generations. I have a Ted Geary design of a larger flattee (1920's) which asks for 14" cedar planks. We can't come close to finding that kind of stock, suitable enough to use as planking, but we have options they didn't, that will result in a lighter stronger version of the same.

I'm very fond of Dave Geer's scantlings formulas, but from "Elements of Boat Strength" his own words, ". . . scantlings given here will produce safe, sound, cost-effective vessels . . ." In many designs, his formulas do work quite well, but often times an overly built structure is created. Off a rocky lee shore, in a storm this can be heart warming, but wondering why others can haul larger loads or are always ahead of you in the fleet also results. I've found that Geers scantling rules don't work as well on smaller craft. This is true of any formula to assist the designer, not relying on engineering, past experience and a data base of previous examples, for successful and similar craft.

I recently (last fall) designed an aluminum ketch http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/designs/kestrel/RYD-18.htm . In comparison to Geer's formulas, the plating for the bottom, topsides and deck are over twice as thick, but my stringer spacing and dimensions are close. The framing under Geer, would have been similar in size, but 40% more frequent. Geer would have the boat riveted, I chose welding. The keel girder was larger, but I was working around a specific set of requirements for the client, many dictating these deviations from "Elements" suggested scantlings. Ultimately, any set of rules governing construction must be accepted as a very general guide, in lieu of the actual engineering process to insure adequate strength. Because of the particulars of this yacht, I elected to do the engineering and the structure required less framing, heavier plating and some other structural members, but the overall cost was about 10% more weight with much more strength. A price I could live with, considering the conditions the customer requested.

With the advent of "engineered" boats after WWII (before was basically a rule of thumb kind of thing) we discovered we could build lighter structures and not compromise strength as much as was feared. In fact, we can now build ocean going yachts that are a 1/4 of the weight of a typical 1920's passagemaker, that is stronger, lighter and faster, without much compromise.

[Pipefitter]

Didn't the hull weight in some of these older craft offset loose ballast requirements being they were knowing that there was going to have to counterweight a certain amount of sail,mast and wind conditions? Seems if the hulls are made lighter,more external or inernal ballast would need to be added to the hull. Maybe raw lead wasn't as easy to obtain and room for a bunch of stones in the bottom might have been out of place on a working boat. Seems that whatever is taken off,has to be put back somewhere else.

I do agree with the scarcity of good wood. It's a never ending quest for the magic boards set ideal for boat building. A frustrating search having to make do with this or that and the crap available now,which is why I am quick to argue traditional vs. modern construction practices or which is better. I don't know of anyone in my peer group that could afford waterside storage for traditionally constructed boats nor to have them hauled for maintenence. Nowadays,one never outright owns their traditional craft if they have to pay slip and related fees to it's upkeep and keeping one on a trailer,although possible,still isn't the best world for it.

I do like alot of the older styles and the looks of the work boats but I sure don't see the practicality of old world construction and scantlings compared to modern. I feel my glued boat can virtually last me forever with less maintenence than the work involved in building it or rebuilding it every 10 yrs. Traditional construction and materials are charming and nice to be in awe of but I can't spend the rest of my life building and rebuilding the same boat as if my life depended on it.

I am all for the development of modern, hand crafted boats ,with the best materials and schedules available and affordable. Traditional is of the mind,eye and hand, moreso than the materials.

[Pipefitter]

Ahh well,Oyster. I hope you have a great summer as well and thanks for all the Simmons info and pictures and tips. I guess we'll catch you on the flip side of whenever, so you take care.

I loaded that merc into the truck tonight to get it serviced and checked out tomorrow(new water pump and pump housing whether it needs it or not). Soon as the motor comes back,the boat goes in for wiring and steering.I should be on the water in June. Will send pics your way including the monster reds and snook.

[Pipefitter]

A Florida boat builder I know,always said,the most ideal waterline length for this Gulf coast is 24ft. This was for power boats and I am not sure if this is planing or displacement,round bilge or hard chined. I am thinking he was referring to outboard powered planing hulls. If this is the case,do these dimensions hold true for most all boats in a given area whether it be sail,outboard,inboard etc? Something to do with wave timing after 8 miles out on average and again when we get our winter season northeast

30's. Anything over 30 mph here is a rarity other than hurricanes and I don't think that counts for obvious reasons.

When asked what would be the best small boat to be stuck out in when the freak storms pile up on ya he says,"anything built like a surf board."

[PAR]

Stability calculations, in these older craft weren't usually performed. Racing yachts may have had some limited numbers analyses, but most were rule of thumb boats that closely followed other very similar vessels. Trim ballast was the norm, carried out after launching. This accounted for as much as 20% of the total ballast, usually much closer to 10%. Because of material and method limitations, the CG was generally higher then we see today. All outside ballast was long to catch on and designers resorted to what they were comfortable with.

Some true designers started engineering their contraptions and quickly showed the others of the fleet their transom. Nat Herreshoff lead this charge to produce stronger, lighter and superior engineered structures in yachts. This man developed just about every method of construction we see today in wooden boats. He invented: the web framing system, introduced screws for fastening planking, the first fin keel yacht and a principal developer of the bulb keel, designed 6 Americas Cub winners, the sail track, cross cut sails, most of the rigging components we use today, literally thousands of different yacht designs and countless more. He was probably the first to use scientific methods to developed yachts and their parts. His brilliance in the later half of the 19 century and early part of the 20th, was part of the reason for the great, golden age of sail.

These methods of design required much more study and a very long apprenticeship in the right environment. Few had the luxury of this like the Herreshoff family, who were building ships, steam engines and other "high tech" for the era pieces. Even with this, he didn't do a stability curve calculation. He knew how much displacement he needed for a particular design and drew lines to provide this with a fudge factor to insure safety and trimming at launch.

A lighter hull can't carry anymore ballast then a heavier one, but a lighter hull can have a taller ballast to displacement ratio, which can dramatically effect stability. The amount of ballast you can carry is dependant on several factors, but it basically a displacement game. Most designers start out with a generalized target for the displacement, with the hope of a general ballast/displacement ratio. As the concept becomes more finalized, the shape of the boat or the targets get adjusted. Stability is gained from shape and weight. Most all boats use both, but usually one much more so then the other. A catamaran is a good example of shape stability. The vast majority of the stability comes from the widely spaced hulls and very little from weight. A modern ocean racer may get a fair amount of it's stability from shape, but much more from the huge percentage of it's displacement hanging well down on a fin keel.

WWII took engineering and materials to a new level. We had a true water proof glue, man made wood products (plywood) that was stronger then steel, pound for pound, new fabrics, new methods and techniques. This permitted the designers to explore avenues of pursuit that they couldn't dream of before. This produced lighter, stronger and faster yachts, then a similarly sized pre war yacht. The 50's and 60's brought on a revelations in fabrics, chemistry and engineering break throughs that we are still exploiting today.

With the exception of very high dollar racers, the chemistry, materials, fabrics, techniques and methods we use today were developed in part or fully, a couple of generations ago. Yacht design is a reasonably conservative industry. The aircraft industry is also, both rightly so. We engineer a device to place people in an un-natural environment, one where great harm could come from a small mishap, the conservative approach is usually applied.

The aren't any generalizations about "ideal" length that can be very accurate. Some will tell you about wave frequency in the area, others a myth about mass or beam/length, none of it holds water. There to many variables on the water to neatly fall into any column of handyness to the designer. If this were true there would be 100's of thousands of 24' boats (only) working the waters on the west side of the state, which clearly isn't the case.

Any boat, regardless of the construction method, materials or workmanship will degrade if neglected. Traditional wooden boats seem to fall apart faster then other types, but seamanship is the only answer. Good seamanship is keeping the boat clean, dry, repaired and in good maintenance, as well as operating it safely and correctly. The operation part is practiced, but the rest of the seamanship skills are usually lacking in many owners. Most take much better care of their cars and homes then their boats. This wasn't always the case, but more often then not, now is unfortunately.