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Non-Skid surfaces


Howard

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Close enough to being finished with the Spindrift to begin wondering about non skid areas. I have the plastic granules to mix in the paint. I've laid down some samples and it is rough....as in you would not want to stand on it in bare feet rough. It also looks like it would be hard to clean. That may soften with time.

Do most of these boats get non-skid and if so what works best?

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I've done non- skid several different ways, and mixing the grit in with the paint is probably my LEAST favorite way. In fact, I just plain don't do that anymore. It ALWAYS comes out splotchy. and the grit just does not stay in suspension well, so you have to almost continously stir it as you are painting.

If you want a solid, very even nonskid, then the method shown in Bingham's "Sailor's Sketchbook" works very well. That's the method I used on the Princess I built.

Basically you tape off the area you want to be nonskid, roll on a coat of either epoxy or primer and while it is very wet you totally cover the area with grit. make sure you don't miss ANYPLACE. Once the primer or epoxy cures, then GENTLY vacumn off any loose grit and then roll on another coat of what ever. Then you can pull the tape and THEN you can just paint as usually.

If you want a less aggressive surface, put it under the epoxy. If you want a slightly more aggressive surface, do it under the primer, then prime again and add a couple coats of paint.

Since you already have the grit, that's the way I'd do it and it's my favorite on new construction. Gives a VERY even finish. I've used it on varnished steps also- works quite well.

If you didn't already have the grit, then you could do what I did on the Meridian. It already had painted decks ( 2 part poly) so we purchased Interlux INterdeck. That's a special paint that comes with the non skid grit pre mixed and it seems to stay in suspension quite well. It's a less aggressive nonskid than using grit, but still works quite well. We've had it on the decks for a year now and it still looks good, even up on the ofre deck where anchors have pounded it for many many anchorings.

And by the way- I don't buy marine nonskid grit any more. I use model railroad ballast sand- it's just as fine ( the fine grade anyway) and cheaper. I get it at the hobby shop. Another Bingham suggestion by the way.

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Thats basically the process I used on my test strip. Sprinkling the non-skid over the base coat of wet paint. Your comment about "totally covering" the surface got me to wondering about density and as a last resort, I got out the directions. :roll: That wasn't much help...as they suggested covering it to the desired density, leaving that up to me. What did help was the suggestion of dulling it a bit by hitting it with 320 grit sandpaper to knock down the sharp points.

So I'll play with a few more test strips to get the feel for how much I want, and how hard to sand it to get it dulled down to a tolerable level, then do it.

Thanks!

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After you've done the few different ways available, you eventually come back to the traditional method, of sprinkling some texture material into freshly applied paint and top coating it. Charlie nailed it on the head. Adding it to the paint or using a pre-mix means keeping it in suspension, which is hard to do evenly. Taping out nice looking "water ways" in the areas you don't want any texture and then sprinkling into wet paint or epoxy is the ticket. A real nice job will look like a molded 'glass, production boat deck. Sprinkle on lots more then you need, cover every square inch with an even thickness of texture and you can recover it with a shop vac in a few days. Let it dry good, I give it more then 24 hours, having had a bad time of it once with the shop vac sucking up some still wet paint under the texture. Then top coat with your choice of product. The more coats top coats, the less texture aggressiveness there will be.

I'll try to remember to post some pictures of a set of deck panels I recently did (last year) for a guy who has his boat back in for some varnish touch up. I did a two tone treatment on them, the base coat and what the texture (smashed bits of walnut shell) is applied over is a light tan. All the edges, around each panel seam (there are more then one) and around each access hatch (it's not a small boat) also insuring I made healthy radiuses on each corner (looks better that way) received tape. More paint was applied and a coating of texture was sprinkled about an 1/8" thick and left to dry for a few days. I dumped most of the loose texture then used a shop vac to get the semi stuck stuff. I then put one more coat of paint followed by two coats of clear satin polyurethane which darkened the base color a fair amount. When the tape was pulled it produced a two toned effect that looks very nice, though not necessary for the job. I did it to soften the texture a little more and to add some style cheaply.

Typical locations for "water ways" (where you put the tape) are around anything sticking through or attached to the surface getting this texture, areas that may chaff lines (like around cleats, bits and chocks) along the very outer and inner edges of decks, removable panel seams, or places you have something bolted/screwed down (like pad eyes for blocks, fair leads, bow lights, etc.)

I've seen some try glass beads under varnish and urethane, but didn't like the odd reflection when the light caught it just so, but I'm a touch old fashioned about these sort of things. It did look effective as an anti skid, but I suspect the varnish wouldn't stay stuck very long with this treatment and touch up or repairs could be problematic at best.

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On my Two Paw, I sprinkled (poured) non-slip material onto freshly painted areas, let dry, vacuumed and then covered with another coat of paint. This looked fine in about 80% of the area. In some places, it looks like the paint (rolled on thinly) dried too much before the non-skid material arrived. It's pretty hard to paint/sprinkle in small sections--you pretty much have to paint an entire area then sprinkle it. If it's hot, you've got to move fast.

When doing this again, I'll do it differently. I'll sprinkle the non-skid onto epoxy instead of paint. This should give me a little more working time and should improve my results.

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On the epoxy option, and some paint systems, you are normally required to sand before painting and between coats to give the paint some tooth to attach to. Yet you can't sand after the non-skid is down. Seems like it would be the biggest problem with epoxy if it has a slick finish.

Is that ever a problem? My solution is to use a water based, two part LPU from S3. It can go on wet on wet, but it does dry fast. As John says, I'll have to work fast, or put the paint down on a really cool, humid morning.

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Guest Oyster

Sorry, I must address the issue of non-skid added to the epoxy coats. My opinionated opinion is that you will reqret this if you ever ding the surface. You pattern, or complete sanding down the road for cleanup and redoing, will give you little skid, if you are depending on it for any safety factor. Sprinkling it on, for the novice guy, can also give you clump areas along with areas that are no fully covered. There is a fine line, especially using many of the high end paints, that have a very high gloss surface, that makes the complete job look inferior if you do not have a uniform pattern.

The new glass beads, that Interlux and awlgrip makes, is still the best. It wears keeping the color all the way through it. Just make sure you let it sit in the mixed or new paint for around 20 minutes, receiving the paints and then stir again, and along the way, rolling the blend with a two inch wide short nap roller, and in some cases a solvent resistant cover. Then top coat it, after pulling the taped surroundings, after its skinned over, with whatever process you are using in your paint process.

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The Princess 22 that Charlie built for me was delivered in October, 2004. The nonskid he installed, as described by him, has held up very well and I am very satisfied with it. I do not have experience with any other method except the Interlux Interdeck which I used on the seat tops on Pilgrim. This has also been satisfactory, especially as an application after the boat was constructed.

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Sorry' date=' I must address the issue of non-skid added to the epoxy coats. My opinionated opinion is that you will reqret this if you ever ding the surface. You pattern, or complete sanding down the road for cleanup and redoing, will give you little skid, if you are depending on it for any safety factor. Sprinkling it on, for the novice guy, can also give you clump areas along with areas that are no fully covered. There is a fine line, especially using many of the high end paints, that have a very high gloss surface, that makes the complete job look inferior if you do not have a uniform pattern.

The new glass beads, that Interlux and awlgrip makes, is still the best. It wears keeping the color all the way through it. Just make sure you let it sit in the mixed or new paint for around 20 minutes, receiving the paints and then stir again, and along the way, rolling the blend with a two inch wide short nap roller, and in some cases a solvent resistant cover. Then top coat it, after pulling the taped surroundings, after its skinned over, with whatever process you are using in your paint process.[/quote']

I haven't tried the glass beads, but I can say that using Agrashell (ground up walnut shells) in epoxy works very well, and is easy to "patch". As Charlie said, you roll on a thin coat of epoxy using a 1/8" foam roller ... the very short nap is necessary to put on a thin coat ... and then you pile on the Agrashell. You can put it an inch thick if you want. When you vacuum it off you get a very even appearance and you can even hit it lightly with a pad sander and knock the peaks off the Agrashell so its a bit less aggressive ... this makes it look like that "Kool Deck" stuff they put around swimming pools. To patch it, you simply brush on a very thin layer of epoxy in the void and pile on the Agrashell. The trick is to make sure you don't have a pool or clump of epoxy, as it will then wick up into the Agrashell and you will have a clump of it when the epoxy dries.

As far as coating over the top of it, you don't have an amine blush problem because you can't see the surface of the epoxy. When you re-coat, the peaks and valleys of the Agrashell surface provides more than enough "tooth" for the new coat to adhere ... when you think about it, that surface is better than one hit by Capt Jake and his 10 grit sander!

I used a top coat of paint over the Agrashell, and it held up very well. I used soft latex porch paint, but it soaked into the shells so even when they were bumped off, the color was beneath them. A quick patch and paint touch up and it was back to normal.

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Like with epoxy, most paints have a "window" of overcoat time that a new coat can be applied without "toothing" up the paint. The new coat will chemically bond to the still curing previous coat. Much depends on the paint type. Some of the solvent based paints actually attack the previous coating (the solvents do) which softens it and the two be come one. Others need just be in contact and the base product bonds (within the window).

The can will tell you how long this window is (or the manufacture web site) on most occasions. This can be a short as 10 to 15 minutes to as long as a few hours, dependant on the manufacture and type paint.

I don't like hard repairs (everything needs repairs eventually), so I'm inclined to not put texture material in epoxy. Paint is easy to remove, even with heavy texture added. Epoxy isn't as easy to remove. I still don't like texture in the paint, preferring to apply it after it's down. On hot days, adding some "Penetrol" (about 10%) will dramatically increase the working time of oil based products. I wouldn't use a fast drying paint for texture.

Here's two different panels, both a year old and seen heavy use on a large power boat.

post-619-129497648599_thumb.jpg

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One of the things I find interesting is trying to put the recomendations of the experienced guys into practice. Following the advice of the group, I did some shopping and tried some things out. Here is what I've found.

Right now, I have 4 samples of grit material for the non skid. They are:

System 3 Non-skid, about one quart, cost was $19.50 (have had this for months now....got it with the paint). It's a polycarbonate, sharp edged crystal, and is somewhat coarse, at least compared to the other choices.

Found Charlie's model railroad ballast at the Hobby Lobby. The 32 oz size (about one quart) cost $9.50. There were at least 3 sizes of ballast, and I chose the "fine". Other options were medium and coarse, and multiple color options with each. I went with the lightest color they had. On the woodlandscenics.com website are somewhere around 20 or 30 options for ballast, so you can't simply go looking for "ballast". There are choices to make. (Ballast, BTW, refers to the use of the fine aggregate material to simulate the rock used in rail road beds in scenic landscapes for model trains. The real ballast being the rock that rail road ties are bedded in.)

The hardware store sold a non skid paint additive. Cost of the bag shown below was $4.50 for about a pint of material. It would be comparable in texture to the S3 non skid, and is a darker color. It is sand or some other mineral aggregate.

Lastly, in a boat building book I have, the author's version of this non-skid story recomends the same "sprinkle on wet paint, then paint over procedure", but went on to specify using "No. 1 kild dried silica sand, available from any lumber yard or hardware store for a few bucks". So I went looking for that, and there were at least 10 options at my hardware store for sand, but none of them was No. 1 DKSS. So what is No 1 KDSS? Searching the web wasn't much help. I did eventually find a reference to No. 1 sand on one site that referenced it to a screen size of 50 to 70 mils. The store did have an option of Industrial Quartz (sold as white silica sand), with a 20% or more being retained by a 50 mil screen and most being 15 mils or greater in diameter. Another site suggested that for non-skid, something like 2/3's of the aggregate should be exposed above the finished coat, and since my paint lays down 2.5 to 3 mils per coat, I'll have a finish coat of 12 mils. So I will give this silica sand option a try. Why bother? The 75 pound bag cost $7.

Compared to the others, the silica sand is far, far finer in texture. But, having laid down a test patch using the fine ballast, and S3 non-skid, it seems to me like it could be finer. Those seem awful coarse to me. But at the same time, I have two products sold as non-skid and both are the same size. Might want to pay attention to that. The medium RR ballast is about the same size as these two, for what it's worth.

Sand or aggregate can be round or angular. The latter is sometimes referred to as "sharp sand". The sharp edges not only provide more traction, they lock into the paint better. So the ideal would be to find something like the silica sand, about the same size as the fine ballast, and angular in shape. And in a 50 to 75 pound bag for under $10.

Lastly, one other option for non-skid I've seen referenced is to use Xynole cloth, and only put down a couple coats of resin, which leaves the surface rough. A scuff sanding and paint on that is supposed to leave a rough non-skid texture. So that was tried too. All I can say about it is that it might work, but isn't nearly as neat looking or rough. It is easy to do.

Some pictures......and keep in mind rocks to not photograph well. :roll:

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post-613-129497648683_thumb.jpg

post-613-129497648689_thumb.jpg

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After using a mutitude of various things on various customer jobs, I've come to a couple conclusions on my own that may help to muddy the waters some more.

I, like PAR tend to look down the road at what might need to be done when it comes time to redo or patch in and the amount of effort and time it takes to remove the old and replace with new. Also the bare foot test and more importantly the bare leg test over a good long day in the sun and water.

I tend to avoid sand or mineral aggregate unless it is really fine and evenly applied. I dislike it from a removal point of view as well as how it feels on a bare leg and on bare feet. It has to be scrapped off to remove it and if it is set in epoxy, it becomes a real pain in the.......

I much prefer ground walnut shells. They too come in various grades for various uses. From quite coarse to extremely fine for polishing gun barrels, etc. Almost any auto repair supply house will carry several grades for shot cleaning cabinets. Any gunsmith will tell you where to get really finely ground shells. Almost any pet supply will carry it in relatively fine grades for pet birds. Inexpensive and a lot lighter in weight.

I like to apply it in a fresh layer of primer after all the other prep work has been done. Broadcast it over the area and in a thicker layer than will be adhered to the primer. Then vacuum it up carefully and then apply your layers of paint.

When it comes time to remove it, a coarse belt will take it right off in a flash. Or it can be scraped easily and spot filled. You can knock the tips off with a sander if it is a bit rough and you can sand it down as smooth as you would like, even if you get some relatively coarse grind shells.

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Barry and Frank have made a compelling case for ground walnut shells, aka walnut hulls. As I have 3 black walnut trees in my yard, I'd submit to the makers of these products that walnut hulls are the outside layer that the nut grows inside of, and the shells are the hard part surrounding the nut meat. But some call the ground shells hulls, so we go with that.

Anyway, the devil is in the details. The biggest auto parts store in town, the one that stocks automotive paints, knows nothing about walnut shells. I've called....one pet story nearby has walnut shells, sold for bird cage litter. Said to be about the same size as sand.....and we know how much that varies. I'll have to check on that. The gun shops don't stock the stuff, but I have one of the nation's largest reloading mailorder places within a few miles of my house.They stock two types in various quantities, but they don't sell retail, I'll have to order it to see it. Not much in the way of tecnical specs, but one does list it as passing a 12/12 seive. That sounds fairly coarse, but if that's the stuff, I can get a 3 gallon bucket for about $19.

Agrashell has a bunch of different sizes of product:

http://www.compomat.com/walnut.shtml

Which one is the right one? And where would I get it if I wanted it? It doesn't appear to be stocked around here.

And last, but not least, this bit of information plucked from a site PAR referenced a while back:

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/grit.html

Probably the best information of them all, and I like the reference to the sandpaper grit to give one a sense of proportion. And they agree with Barry and Frank on the benefits of walnut shells. If my bird cage source doesn't pan out, I may give them a try to get some fine grit stuff. That or go out in the yard, pick up some shells and throw them in the blender. :?

My point to all this is the difficulty of taking recomendations and putting them into practice. Again, the devil is in the details. You can be partially right and wind up with something that is nothing at all like what was intended.

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Non skid - the best non skid I have ever used is granulated rubber in a chlorinated rubber base. It sold out here under the name "Deck Tred Marine". It was originally developed for stairwells and access platforms on coal fired power stations. It is soft to sit on, but grips like the proverbial.

Used in conjunction with a pair of Okewind windsurfer boots, best grip ever!

It is easily touched up without having to do the whole panel, can be tinted using standard painters tinters and slightly insulates the deck. Other than that, we have used an acrylic grit (as used by panelbeaters - bodyshops to you guys), and a texture roller to raise the finish.

Agree with Barry Pyatt, you must be able to spot repair and I hate using epoxy on deck.

Lots of luck

Lawrie Searle

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Howard, I used to get Walnut shells from a sporting goods dealer. Specifically, one that sells guns and reloading supplies. I used it to tumble my brass prior to reloading. I do recall that they had several grades of it. You also may try a lapidary supply house. It is possible that they may have it for use in tumblers as well.

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Yes, there is another product, here in the Pacific Northwest it is sold as Spantex. A self vulcanizing rubber compound with ground up bits of rubber in it.

If forms a flexable membrane over plywood or fiberglass that is impervious to weather and takes a real beating. Also can be tinted a ton of different colors. Easy on feet and legs and easy to repair. It is a Dupont product that was developed for roof tops, decks and walkways. Used extensively in marinea for ramps, and dock surfaces, anywhere that needs to provide sure footing.

It rolls on with a couple coats to make the texture even and then gets a top coat that is the finish color and is just the smooth rubber.

http://www.spantexusa.com/

We used it a lot on commercial boats where it needed to hold up to a lot of heavy abuse. Had it on a couple sailboats in the past and have been seriously considering using it on my Weekender decks and cabin top. Not as pretty as a painted non'skid but it is good for about 20 years in the weather.

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Back in the 80s, I got tired of slipping and sliding when moving about on my FRP boat. The molded in non-skid was worthless. I found some oil based paint with granulated natural rubber suspended in it in one of the marine catalogs. It came in a light gray, but could be tinted to any color. I used it on the foredeck, side decks and seat tops. The stuff worked great. Since the natural rubber was soft, it was not uncomfortable to set or lay on, but the stuff would grip anything. The color faded after about 10 years in the sun, but the non-skid still works after more than 20 years. I discovered later that putting it on the seat tops was a mistake. It gripped so good the you could not slid down the seat to change positions, you had to raise up to move. I worn out the bottom of two swim suits in one sailing season.

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Anyway' date=' the devil is in the details. The biggest auto parts store in town, the one that stocks automotive paints, knows nothing about walnut shells. I've called....one pet story nearby has walnut shells, sold for bird cage litter. Said to be about the same size as sand.....and we know how much that varies. I'll have to check on that. The gun shops don't stock the stuff, but I have one of the nation's largest reloading mailorder places within a few miles of my house.They stock two types in various quantities, but they don't sell retail, I'll have to order it to see it. Not much in the way of tecnical specs, but one does list it as passing a 12/12 seive. That sounds fairly coarse, but if that's the stuff, I can get a 3 gallon bucket for about $19.

[/quote']

Check Ebay also; there are several vendors there that sell agrashell in 1# bags for soap makers. Check with them and see if you can get the quantity you need.

One of the epoxy guys on the net sells it also ... see http://www.epoxyproducts.com/6_nonskid.html for his recommendations (anyone used his products? He's in NH).

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Not sure that finding a non-skid solution for a Spindrift is worth all this fuss, but it's informative to say the least. I've heard of rock hounds, but lapidary? Who knew.

The rubber non-skid solutions (if they are really durable) have appeal for a working dinghy, as it would have who knows what dumped on the bottom. Anchors and chain, buckets, coolers, fish guts....you name it. For a bigger boat, the same would apply to the cockpit sole, and foredeck. They really get abused. But for my purposes, I think I'll be sticking to sand or the walnut shells for this boat.

Petco had the walnut shells for bird cage litter. But they were coarse. Close to 1/16th inch in size. Probably 2x to 4x the size of my S3 non skid. Price was right at $5.40 for a 5# bag (about the same quantity as a 10# sack of flour).

Most of the gunshop / brass tumblers are using similar sized grit walnut shells for tumbler media.

I keep forgeting to check Ebay for just about anything. Found two suppliers that are selling fine to medium grit walnut shells. One for exfoliating soap additive (I've used that in some hotels and it should be called "skinned alive" additive. That stuff is nasty.)They are pricing that at $7 per pound. The other for polishing media. Looks like one might have a fine grade for about $15 for about 18 pounds, plus $9 shipping, or around $1.30 per pound. I'm checking on those.

I suspect from the color that most ground walnut shells are English walnuts. But if washed and ground, maybe you can't tell the difference from color. I'd agree with Brad that Black Walnuts are many times harder than English. We have a Black Walnut industry in Missouri and the abraisive end of it is bigger than the nut end. A big use for the Black Walnut shells is as an abraisive to sand blast the inside of jet engines.

But for non-skid, there may not be a noticeable difference.

One last thing....in addition to starting off with a small sized grit, it's becoming clear that one can modify the texture by how many coats of paint you apply and how thick you apply it....not to mention the type of paint being used. I'm using a water based 2 part LPU, that goes on thin. So I'm looking for fine grit solutions. I may wind up with something coarser than I wanted, and if it's too coarse, I'll put down a couple more coats of paint.

But of all the things I've tested so far, the fine grade RR ballast is looking the best as far as texture is concerned. I tried a test patch of that fine silica sand and it's too fine.

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