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zecatfish

refit old boat question, idea...

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Hi all, I'm new here and my name is Terry.

I have an old Sundance 23, El Mar Boat company. The mast is damaged and I'm looking into switching it from macaroni rig to gaff rig.

I'm looking for ideas. and a few answers.

First off, can a deck stepped mast be used in a gaff rig?

Does the mast need to be as tall?

How tall would you want on a Gaff rig on a 23' boat with 1200lb balast?

I 27.6

J 9.4

P 23.6

E 8.4

ISP 27.6

JSP 9.4

the mast was bent when I got the boat. Its bent about 8 or 9 feet up from the foot. I think its a 26' mast. If I cut it off at about 16' to get above the kinked section it would be awfully short for a 23' boat.

I have sraightened the mast but it is dimpled on both sides now, I thought about driving an oak timber inside to reinforce the area. This is why I was looking at Gaff rig since it doesn't load the mast like a macaroni rig.

Thanks for any tips and suggestions.

Terry

post-899-12949764791_thumb.jpg

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I'm not a designer or proficient at designing a gaff rig for your boat but Yes, you can rig as a gaffer. The mast can be deck mounted provided there is sufficient support beneath it. You will need shrouds along with chainplates and a forestay. You will want to position your rearmost stay to allow for sufficient boom clearance when running downwind.

You can use the same boom but you may want to go with a somewhat longer boom to allow for a larger low aspect main sail.

If you have a 16' mast now it is a bit short, but could be used most likely. A taller mast will allow for a lower aspect main sail but you could go with a lower aspect design and have it work. You should be aware that you are going to give up some pointing ability so working into the wind will be a bit slower than you would get as designed. You can still use larger jibs to help balance out your helm and give you better perfromance.

You may want to consider a luffwire furling system such as the Harken small boat system or Schaefers. These will make handling the jib, lapper or genoa a bit easier and eliminate having to have a more expensive furling syatem.

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Guest Oyster

I bet if you make an [OT] posting directing it to "Designer' on the B&B part of this forum, you may get a comment or two that would address this from an engineering perspective better than on this part of the board. Just make sure you place the [OT] at the end of your posting. He would be the best to comment and I bet would do so even offline. Just search around the section or open up his website and drop him a short mail.

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Hi Terry,

Glad to see you made it here!

There are a couple of designers on the forums, as well as a couple of professional boat builders, so perhaps if PAR or Charlie and some of the others chime in, you'll get a better feel for what is involved.

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Guest Oyster

Sorry Frank and group, I did overlook Par and Charlie indeed. Guess the paint fumes has the best of me lately. :( One week and counting till I relaunch in the colorfull waters of the Gulf of Mexico. That will help clear my head and vision.

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Guest Oyster
I had mentioned to Terry that Graham's designs might be interesting for him; I wonder if a large sprit sail would be a better bet than a gaffer. I think it would be less rigging involved.

I would not use the type of sprit rig I use on that boat. It maybe that Graham can configure something, but for me to wonder off into that discussion would be like me flying a 747, a real disaster for sure.

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There are several good articles available on line for figuring out the geometry of the rig. If you have the boom and mast to the original rig you can design a new gaff, lug, dipping lug, gunter, junk, sprit, bark, lanteen or whatever you heart desires in a rig for this boat. Your boat is intended to be a sloop, likely fractional (I didn't look her up, but could) Which provided you with good up wind performance and asked for additional area (spinnaker, etc.) for down wind work.

The hull suggests a boat less then 20 years old, planning ability and reduced windage with it's blistered coach roof. A gaff rig may look a bit awkward on this hull, but it sure could be done. Your windward performance would suffer, though under working sailsalone, the off wind abilities would be better then the original rig.

It would be cheaper to replace or repair (sleeve) the mast then to design a new rig. It's a very common repair to sleeve a bent aluminum stick. The bad area (the part you've straightened) can't be relied on for the strength necessary. So it's cut off, a new section is aligned over a sleeve and reattached to the lower and upper parts of the old pole. Your chain plate locations, spreaders, tangs and everything else remains in the same place, without re-engineering a new rig. Winches don't have to be moved, sail tracks, sheet attachments, shroud arrangements, etc. all stay the same with a repair, which isn't true if you change to a gaff or other rig.

If you'd like a price on a new (or repaired) mast, drop me an email and we can discuss it.

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I go along with PAR here. In addition, using a gaff main would move your center of effort aft a good bit I fear. Then you'd have to do something up front to rebalance the boat. Bow sprit, larger jib, what ever.

I think I'd look into sleeving the mast.

Although that boat might look great with a chinese lug sail on it :lol: But you'd most likely have to relocate the mast to do that.

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Theboat is about 1978 model. Original Equip had a sail drive. Its now missing.

I don't know the old girl is worth the expense of a mast. I have a second boat a Watkins 23 that suffered a collision with a Camaro a few years back. The mast is ok, but its only a 23' mast. I've thought about swapping it to the Sundance and rerigging her for the W23 sails.

Worst thing is being in Arkansas theres NO place reasonableto buy anything.

Can't even find stainless bolts. I do need a chain plate does anyone have a supplier that doesn't rip you off like West Marine? They get $38 for a small chain plate.

I'd really like to get her in the water this summer.

Par I'd be interested in getting the mast fixed if I could get it shipped for a reasonable price.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

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Zecatfish, click on my icon and send me an email with your HIN (an ID number located on the title, probably the registration and most importantly on the transom's upper right hand corner) This way I can positively ID the boat (year, model, etc.) and find the proper section (mast extrusion) for the repairs. I can get the pieces and ship them up with the instructions on how to do it (it isn't hard) Though it sounds like the measurements are darn close to the rig on a Catalina 22.

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Thanks for the websites, Par you have mail.

How do you convert say a 1/8" or 1/4" bolt to #4-40 or what ever, I know its prolly something simple but I can't seem to find out.

Thanks

Terry

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If talking about bolts (button, flat, hexagon, machine, stove, carriage, socket or fillister headed) they start at 1/4" and go up from there. Machine screws (equally as diverse) start with numbered sizes 2 through 12 (5 is 1/8", 8 - 5/32", 10 - 3/16") and come in fine and course threads. Bigger machine screws start again at 1/4" and go up to 1/2" (at which point you should be thinking about bolts). Wood screws use the numbering system also, 0 - (.06") to 24 -(.372"). This is the same system in that a #5 is 1/8", etc. There isn't a conversion, it just a numbering system. If you think this is confusing, then don't ask about a #E drill bit.

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