Cruising Boat

[Howard]

In the back of my mind, I've always had the desire to do a long distance coastal cruise (it will take well over a year) that will cover inland rivers, gulf and east coasts and possible a cross over to the Bahamas. When one looks at these waters, vs. an Atlantic crossing, etc. i'ts clear that if you want to experience the best of it, shoal draft is essential. And as I would be doing it single handed, ease of sail handling would be essential. And since it will involve an extended liveaboard period, standing headroom would be nice for those times when you are stuck someplace for days at a time. But at the same time, during such a trip you would expect to encounter rough conditions, so the construction is going to have to be robust.

When I look at these parameters, designs like Graham's Princess boats come to mind. Shoal draft and the cat/ketch rig would be easy to sail and to single hand (I think). And they perform well under sail. The folding masts would come in handy at a number of places with low bridges to pass under. Certainly, fewer sails to deal with vs. something like my current boat with marconi rig and 4 different headsails. (My current boat is a 17 foot trailer sailer that doesn't have sitting headroom, let alone standing headroom....it's not being considered).

When I look at most sharpie designs, the thing that pops up is the limited headroom. Presumably, due to the desire to keep weight and windage as low as possible, since you don't have much ballast below the waterline to give you stability. I wonder if the size of such a boat to get 6' standing headroom requires such a big boat that it is no longer possible to single hand it? The other concern I have is the motion of the boat. Cruisers like to talk about the motion factor, which is less in a heavy displacement boat, vs. a light displacement like most sharpies tend to be. A quick motion in a cruising boat would not be desireable. One would want robust construction.

Unless the size got too big, I'd use a modest sized 4 stroke outboard with alternator, as I would not want the drag of a prop in the water. Ballast would be as many 6 volt golf cart batteries as I could squeeze in. I'd want a full galley with 2 burners and oven, sink, well insulated icebox and adequate counter space and beaucoup storage for supplies and equipment. Mostly it would be just me, but I might occasionally have guests, so one might need bunk space for 3 or 4, which could include the cabin sole. I'd use an Airhead composting toilet. Self-steering would be a combination of autopilot and sheet to tiller. I'd want two anchors on the bow, being a combination of chain and line rodes....but heavy for the weight of the boat. Hopefully the boat would not be big enough to require a windlass, but I'd have a manual one up there just in case. I'd also have a kedge on the stern. Did I mention robust construction? What is robust? I've heard it described as "hell for stout", but to me it means it will be able to stand up to the strains of heavy weather without coming apart.

Anybody know of an existing boat that approximates these parameters? My orginal thought was something simple like an old Pearson Triton, but that is not shoal draft, which I'm thinking is 2 feet or less. It could be built of course, but that would take time and could run into considerable expense. If I have to build it, I need to get started. You wouldn't do that in a weekend.

Howard

[Ken_Potts]

How about a Flicka? They're heavy and small with standing headroom aren't they? I can't remember how shallow they get, though.

Or if you're looking for something cheaper and maybe homebuilt have you seen www.microcruising.com? There's good information on living aboard very small boats there. Look at the links too.

Are you looking to stay in protected waters with the occasional mad dash across open water? If you're only doing short hops you might be able to relax the "heavy" requirement to allow for shoal draft.

Bear in mind that I'm speaking from theory, not experience.

[brian watkins]

Somewhere on the B and B forum, Graham Byrnes mentioned that someday he might draw a larger cat ketch (I'm doing this from memory, so I might have it wrong). I believe he said it would be trailerable, but not routinely, i.e. bring it home at the end of a season type of thing. Since I like drawing boats, I sketched my own. 30' lod X 8',6" beam X 21" draft. Standing headroom (barely), galley and head aft, two settees, then vee-berths forward. Outboard installation like the Princess's. Now, I am NOT a designer, I just like drawing boats. But if Graham ever designs a larger Princess, I'll bet it would be great for the purposes you mention.

[Howard]

The Flicka certainly meets my test of "robust", but I've also heard them described as performing like a pregnant guppy. The Flicka looks good and will take abuse....but I've also heard they don't sail all that well. I forgot to mention it has to perform well.

I suspect something like one of Graham's cat-ketch rigs in a 30 to 32 foot range might work. But since I'm not a boat builder (the Spindrift I am building would float...so I'm calling it a boat...but it ain't done by a long shot), I'm looking first for something off the shelf...as in it exists already. I'm pretty certain that Princess 26 he has plans for would work, but it won't have the headroom I'm looking for. It may evolve into the idea that headroom may not be all that important as long as it has a comfortable seating area and bunk. But for now...headroom is desired. Certainly you can get that in a sturdy 28 to 30 foot keel boat, but then you give up the shallow draft.

And I'm still curious about the "ride" or motion you would get in a 30 footer that may not weigh much more than 5,000 pounds.

Howard

[Frank Hagan]

Standing headroom is a pretty tall order for this size of boat (slight pun there, I guess!) Most of the boats I've seen under 27' that talk about a standing headroom are like the Mac26M, which has it in the companion way area, but not throughout the boat. But it does seem to help make it feel like you have standing headroom. I guess the problem is that without a displacement hull, you'd have an awful lot of freeboard once you get 5 or 6' above the waterline to give you standing headroom.

So one thing to consider is a design with a "pop top" or companionway area that helps give you the feeling of standing headroom in a smaller boat. With the offset centerboard, the B&B Princess Sharpie 26' may have that kind of feeling while maintaining the rest of the "small boat" handling you are looking for.

[Frank Hagan]

Either Practical Sailor or Sail Magazine recently reviewed the Hake Yachts 26RK, a dagger-board design that has some features you might be interested in ... although I think it still doesn't have true standing head room. It draws from 15" to over 3' with an electrically operated daggerboard. http://www.seawardyachts.com/26rk.html

The editors liked the boat, and thought she performed well. The interior looks nice enough to use for extended cruising, although I'm not so sure how easy all the sail handling is for a single handed cruise. I know you're not looking for a production boat, but you might get some ideas from this latest large trailer sailor for your own project.

[PAR]

Flicka does have good standing headroom, in the places you need it. Most people like to be prone or sitting when in a berth, so headroom there isn't necessary. Flicka is 20' and has made some very long passages and crossings.

There are several other production boats available with various levels of standing headroom.

This is a typical set of design compromises that face the designer in small craft work. To get the standing headroom in small shoal draft boats, you have to kiss of the canoe body shapes that are so common today and there goes the performance. Built down sections, hollow footwells in the keel and other tricks must be used to keep the freeboard reasonable enough to permit sailing higher the a beam reach.

Flicka was intended as a sea boat so is under canvassed a bit (good for trade wind work, sucks near shore) and because of her built down sections to provide the headroom, she has a lot of wetted surface to drag through the water, so performance isn't going to sparkle. Flicka also has a full length keel, to provide lateral plane and good tracking, both very important in a sea boat. Puttering about a lake or river, the helm can be manned 100% of the short time you're out. At sea, the helm needs to be left from time to time and a hull design that will not round up the second the helm is released is a good thing. A good cruiser will be able to self steer with sail set and helm lashed, which isn't possible in high aspect appendage and rig boats, without the help of auto pilots or wind vanes. This requirement needs a well balanced hull, not the triangle shapes seen on most production boats currently built.

All small boats will have a poor motion in heavy seas. Some can be better then others, but will suffer when the air eases up, if particularly well suited to sea duty. The same is true of a good sailor in fair weather, it will be over matched in rough conditions.

Flicka is 20' LOA, 18'2" LWL, 8' beam, 3'3" draft, 6,000 pounds displacement, 1750 pounds of that in ballast, which is about a 29% ballast ratio. Her Bimu rig carries 250 sq. ft. and the gaff (much prettier) 288 sq. ft.

Bruce Bingham used a few tricks to get the standing headroom. He has the sole directly on the ballast casting and a heavily crowned cabin roof. The crown is well hidden with hand rails and the boat appears bigger over all then she really is in person. Being modeled after the Block Island Sound lobster craft of over a century ago, she was never intended to be a performance boat, but rather a seaworthy, comfortable, coastal and offshore cruiser with a livable interior. Many owners report them much faster then would be expected with a D/L quite a bit over 400.

Pacific Seacraft builds them right and many have been home built of a few different materials and methods.

Personally, I'd opt for a one of Lyle Hess's Bristol Channel cutters, or some of Chuck Paine's work like the 25' trunk cabin version of Frances, which is a very nice sea boat, Chuck designed for himself. Having sailed both the Flicka and Frances, the Frances is a much better boat. It's also twice the yacht, even though the length is only 5 more feet. It has fine ends, very good sectional shapes and over 50% in ballast. She can handle a gale or the lightest of puff.

[Howard]

The Flicka and Frances do represent the type of quality I'm after, but in a shallow draft design. In these areas, the shoal draft is a must. Frees you up from the constant worry of running aground and gets you into more protected and secluded anchorages, away from the crowds. And I would think a centerboard or even lee-boards would be preferred over a daggerboard, as when (not if) you hit something, the daggerboard would be damaged. The centerboard is going to ride up and over the object.

Other than the Princess 26, the best alternative to what I'm after is seen in the Skimmer:

http://www.creativemarine.com/skimmer/about.html

Has most of the design features, but at 3,000 pounds looks like it is going to get busy quick in any type of a seaway, and I would think would be jumpy even at anchor. The tabernacle mast is good as is the self tending jib as a substitute for the cat-ketch rig for short handed sailing.

Clearly, there is not headroom for my 6' height, unless you use the open companionway. One reason for a fully enclosed headroom is to be able to button the cabin down while hiding from mosquitoes, yet still be able to stand up and function normally. As I see it, when living on a boat for months at a time, you need a small space to function in normally and not put up with the cramped space backpacking conditions you would in a trailer sailer.

So as I see it, I'm looking for something like the Princess 26 or this Skimmer in a length of about 30 feet or so....whatever it will take to get me up to 6 feet and with enough displacement so as to not be "corky". If this is an impossible design parameter, perhaps one needs to look at a good spray dodger with screen enclosure on the open end?

[PAR]

This is what Ted Brewer calls "Difficult Design Decisions" and isn't imposable, but things will have to be sacrificed. Board boats will be the shoalest, but well require much form stability to carry a good spread, which will lead to a harsher ride in some conditions and other compromises.

Frances's bigger sister Leigh may be what you're after. In this size range of yacht (30' LOA) there are many choices, which include standing headroom, robust construction, shoal draft and a good performance envelope.

I'm not sure how shoal you want, but the compromise needs be understood. Flicka, Frances and Leigh are all shoal and have standing headroom. To make them more shoal, you'll likely have to give up something else, like windward ability or comfort in a confused sea way.

Make a few lists of the things you need. One list of the perfect world yacht, including all the things you'd like to see in this yacht, cost, effort and equipment be damned. Another list of only the things you can't live without. This will be a shorter list. Then after much soul searching you'll develop a third list, the one that will most closely reflect your desires. This will afford you a chance at finding a yacht that fits you. You'll find after making the lists (there will be several, when all is said and done) that many of the things you wanted going in, turned out to be less important (once you realize what you'd lose in return) to you then other things that maybe weren't very high on the first few lists.

Good luck . . .

[brian watkins]

Carl Stambaugh (Cheasapeake Marine Designs) was offering a 30 foot ketch called the Bahama Mama (or something like that). Ply epoxy, inside concrete/scrap ballast). Sort of a really modified Swampscott Dory type of hull, is the best way I can describe the shape. Shallow draft, centerboard. The name says the intended cruising area. I saw someone's study plans for it a few years ago. I didn't like the fact that the bulkheads were placed only 6 feet apart (a characteristic of his designs), which made for short berths. I haven't seen anything on it for a long while and I'm not sure if it's still available. Pretty boat.

[PAR]

Don't give up your interests in an off shore boat. I live in an area where blasting over to the Bahamas is an easy and reasonably quick thing to do. Having a boat capable of this isn't asking much in the size you're looking at. At 20' maybe you'd better stick with the Flicka as there aren't many offerings available without turning to a custom design. At 30' you have many options from the manufactures, stock plans lists and customs. This is about the most available size found on the market.

Solo sailing is more a function of mind set and boat layout. I use to solo a 63' ketch in St. Thomas, so any boat can be setup to single hand if you desire it. Reefing is the big issue when solo. Get it done early, because you don't have help when it's getting ugly out and this is the mind set thing I mentioned. The 25' to 30' performance cruiser market is full of boat types from every manufacture you can think of. Most every one will have standing headroom.

Trade wind work is also mind set and setting the boat up. The wind will come from the same direction for days on end. Finding chafe and tracking it down will make your ride a lot more enjoyable. Finding a sail combo that works with minimal fuss, that can balance the boat and not over drive her is important. Most of the rigs seen in the American market, from the major manufactures, are near shore friendly. As a result, you may find you have a constant reef in the main when in the trades. Some folks, including myself choose to have specific trade wind rigs.

[Howard]

No intention of giving up "off shore capable", which by my take means able to survive squalls and not likely to capsize or come apart in what one might encounter in extended coastal sailing. My biggest fear would be getting pinned against a lee shore in a sudden squall (in coastal sailing...the dreaded lee shore is everywhere), and not being able to handle the boat to keep it off the rocks. That or a knockdown in front of a lee shore in a blow. Hard to come back from that. That's the concern. The reality is that 99% of the rest of the time, one might be bobbing around on glassy calm waters wondering how it could be possible to be sitting anywhere that long without a single breath of a wind.

So this boat I'm looking for might not survive a hurricane, but I intend to be out of hurricane waters in those seasons. I think "off shore capable" also means heavy displacement and the ability to add a ton or so of supplies per crew member. Since I never intend to be more than a week or two away from a port and supplies, I'm willing to forego all the tankage and storage space....at least for this boat. And as far as descriptions go, once the water is too deep to wade out of and too far to swim to shore, I don't really care how deep or blue it is....the boat better not let me down!

As I said, my original intention was to use the classic cruiser type such as an old Pearson Triton, or maybe even a Tartan 30. Good sailing ability, robust, about the right size and cheap to buy (but maybe not cheap to outfit). But for work on inland rivers, the entire Florida coasts, Keys, Bahamas, Chesapeake, etc, shoal draft would be a blessing. By that I mean no more than 2' of draft.

Case in point: last October I was at Solomons, MD during the last Tropical Storm that blew through there. The anchorage filled up and while the winds never blew hard, they did blow about 30 knots....first from the south and later in the night, switched to the north at 30 knots or even harder. No disasters that I'm aware of but boats were packed in there and swinging close to each other. At the back end ot the anchorage, once the water got to 5' or less, it was empty. No boats at all. Throw in the ability to duck under bridges and you may have a whole cove or section of river all to yourself. Not only is it more secluded, but it's a safer place to be. More protected from weather and no games of "bumper boats" at 2 AM.

And when one looks at the vast areas of shoal water (5' or less) in these waters, plus expanded anchorages mentioned above) a draft of 2' or less sounds good. I know on the Chesapeake and other waters, you can be nearly out of sight of land and still be in 2' or less of water. It is a constant worry. Yes, you can avoid it if you are careful, but you also give up a lot in the process.

So with this in mind, the Sharpie design has caught my eye. Not only does it have shoal draft, but also has the ability to easily drop the masts on a cat-ketch rig to duck under a bridge (and on the Erie Canal and IL Rivers.....you would have to pull the stick on any sloop or similar rig to get under fixed bridges). And as I count em....one might only need about 4 sails total on a C-K rig. The two sails (main and mizzen), plus maybe a storm try-sail and a light air blooper or genny. I carry 5 sails on my 17 footer. Bottom line is that sail handling short handed is improved with the C-K rigs....or so it would seem.

The negative again is the apparent "choice" issue where I lose the ability for me, at 6' tall, to stand upright when down below. To gain that, I may end up with too big of a boat, either in cost to operate or ability to handle alone (I'm a studly looking 50...but still 50). The next question then, is how big of an issue is standing headroom? Certainly nice, but can one adapt to something a foot or so shorter than you are? At 5' headroom, yes you can find a comfortable place to SIT, and can stand upright in the companionway, but is that enough? I know I adapt to my existing 17 footer and have stayed on it for up to two weeks and it doesn't even have good sitting headroom. It could turn out that something in the 25 to 30 foot range would be luxurious by comparison!

So I guess I'll ponder this and in the meantime try to hitch a ride on a cat-ketch boat to see how that works, and try to spend some time on a boat with only 5' of headroom. Only way I know to find out for sure.

Thanks to all who responded. It was a big help. And if money and draft ever get to the point where they are not an issue, that Morris Leigh really caught my eye!

Howard

[Howard]

Thanks Ray. I think you gave a much better description of "off shore capable" than I did. The coastal and near-offshore is what I'm after. And one reason is performance. One could do this trip in a Westsail (wet snail?), but it wouldn't be any fun and it would take me twice as long to do it. I'd rather be zipping around and sailing, vs. plodding along and having to rely on the iron genny (aka "the D-sail") to get me where I want to go.

[CURTYD]

I think this initial writer has described my retirement plan to a "tee". I still am at least 15 years or so out from this because of my 17-month old daughter. That is why I peruse this web site, building may be my best option.

I hope to get a jump on things and start sea training of wife and daughter when she gets old enough to handle her own kayak or canoe. I project at 10 years old or so, which is not that far off. I met a couple in their sixties at Fort Jefferson-Dry Tortugas whose two teenagers were some very apt seaman ( a boy and a girl ) during the passing of a low pressure system, where the dragging large vessels were a threat to all of us who could actually set an anchor. The 3 of us were out in dinghy and runabouts at 2 AM setting other's anchors to save our own vessels.

I too dreamed of offshore trips but I think I'll just "container ship" any vessel if I want to leave the New World, so that sets a length limit of no more than 40 feet. But I also think coastal cruising of the Americas could easily occupy a 20 year retirement lifetime.

I like the lines of the Princess as well, but I am not yet convinced about plywood wood-epoxy construction. Yep, I have read Pardy's chapter on adhesives and he is very persuasive. I will have to practice on a small kayak or two first before being convinced.

Anyhow, I think in the long run all boat cabins end up being very small, standing headroom or no, if stuck down below for any length of time. So sitting headroom it is because it opens up to us more extreme shallow draft options. We'll see if the wife will concur. Life during the day is out and on the deck, anchor, dinner and stargazing for a bit, sleep, up at dawn and on our way, the heat rolls in fast in the AM in the summer months.

I too am one of those Fla. skippers and the old adage is true about two types of skippers. "Those that have run aground and those that are about to run aground." A darn keel pointing straight down means I never can leave the channel without great trepidation. 18 to 24 inch draft is worth any sacrifice. Even 4 foot was deep for most of fla outside the intracoastal markers.

I like the Frances design as the Bahamas and Cuba become possible. I liked the Ruell Parker designs, particurlarly the TERRAPIN 34, but we're back to the faith in epoxy bonding. Princess is great and a strong possibility, but back to epoxy and now plywood with water or any intrusion damage that can run the length of the laminations. I also like the external keel strip rather than all internal ballast, like MEADOW LARK.

The twin bilge keels where the boat rests on the bottom upright is pretty nice, as well. But seems to be a complex construction method.

Tabernackles are a requirement because of the channels and waterways I have in mind, with a nice powerplant. Leaning towards the outdoor motor well, because it just makes repairs and maintenance so darn easy.

I think I am settling on the L Francis Herreschoff MEADOWLARK adapted to mast tabernackles and outboard motor well or the PRINCESS to allow trailerability.

I just have to get convinced on epoxy or adapt the construction methods to the rescorcinol Pardy speaks of. Trying to get any of the designers in epoxy to adapt their methods to this other glue construction, that may prove a task in and of itself.

Just some ruminations on my "ideal design."

[PAR]

Meadow Lark is a fun boat, and surprisingly fast. It was designed for a Florida fellow and plied the west coast. It doesn't have standing headroom. The same client had Goldenball commissioned from LFH to provide the same, but with standing headroom, throughout.

These are both good size projects. I thought you were looking for a much smaller design.

There are many examples of Meadow Lark and Goldenball around Florida. Some of these have been professionally built, others in a backyard. I know of one Meadow Lark currently for sale in the Keys. Personally I dislike leeboards, though they are quite efficient and were a LFH trait late in his career. Goldenball was his last design I think and also a fine sailing craft.

Ray is correct in the requirements of a true passage maker, but hopping to the islands for a drink on the weekend shouldn't require a bluewater boat. It's a short days sail from Stuart or Ft. Pierce. I've made the run in an older Hunter 25 several times. Cuba is about the same type of hop, though the water and currents can be much worse in the straight.

You really only need standing headroom in the galley. Most of us sit down to eat and lie down to sleep.

[brian watkins]

I think the Princess Sharpie 26 has a couple of strong points in it's favor. That rig drops really quick. I wonder what more experienced sailors think about the possibilities of riding out a storm at anchor if you can drop the masts? Or, at sea if hove to, what the effect of dropping the main only, perhaps combined with a sea anchor? While we know the positive effects of heavier displacement, sometimes light weight has it virtues. A boat that can be physically manhandled in an emergency can escape damage that costs a heavier boat dearly. And of course, boats cost by the pound. Then, regarding the headroom problem: pics of the first Princess 22 show a nice folding canopy over the cockpit. That, on the 26, combined with a dodger over the hatch would give you standing headroom in the galley and a nice patio. I'd still love to see drawings of a larger ketch from B and B if Graham can ever find the time, though!

[Howard]

As to Curt's comments on epoxy and wood boats, I've read the same thing from Larry Pardey. At least the part about him not trusting epoxy and it was a fraud, or something like that. I don't recall having read what he thought the problem was. It could be he was trying to use it on White Oak or Teak, neither of which take epoxy well, or it could have been the joint in question was clamped too tight, which squeezed the epoxy out. Very light clamping or light weights are preferred with epoxy vs. tight clamping. Perhaps he tightly clamped oak? Perhaps over time UV light does the epoxy in? Perhaps it was painted a dark color and used in bright sun?

But as for epoxy and wood, they say epoxy is something on the order of 10X times as strong as Polyester and virtually ALL fiberglass boats are made of polyester, and the strongest of those all use some type of core...either balsa, foam or plywood. And often times the structural bulkheads, etc. are simply plywood, tabbed to the hull with polyester resins. And there are lots of stitch and glue plywood boats out there and I don't hear of them coming apart.

So it stands to reason that a thick plywood core covered with an epoxy skin is going to be tough enough. I do see how water intrusion into the core would be a problem, but why couldn't one lay down 4 or 5 layers of glass cloth on the exterior and harden areas like the keel with some type of metal to take the abrasion abuse on the bottom? Perhaps a bolt on lead keel? Would that be all that much different than a cored fiberglass boat?

And never would I simply drill a hole in the wood exterior and expect a caulking to keep the water out. I'd backfill every hole with epoxy and then re-drill it. The plywood would be totally encapsulated and only in the event it got holed somehow after it was built would water find it's way in. Unless I did a sloppy job of building it.

And instead of marine plywood on the bottom bow sections, why not use a treated plywood? Graham's designs all call for CCA or whatever they have replaced it with in all rot prone areas. He says it will epoxy just fine, and will not rot. So why not use that instead of a marine ply like Okume...at least for the areas likely to get holed? As I recall from my reading, the bottom and sides of the Pardey's first boat "Seraffyn" was douglas fir, or some such wood, but was liberally coated with creosote and then painted. No rot, but certainly toxic....and required lots of maintenance. But it has hung right in there.

No expert...just random thoughts of a curious mind.

[CURTYD]

Where is that boat listed or can be found? I couldn't find it in a general search in the Boat Trader. Thanks, it probably is the same one that was written about in 1982 after a writer bought it in Miami and took his first sail on it with his family. It really is my ultimate dream boat at this moment in time.

[Howard]

Been a while since this can of worms was opened...but in the interum, I've ordered and read Parker's "Sharpie" book. Interesting reading.

Wondering if anyone is aware of any boats being built from his plans for "Minocqua"? On the surface, it seems this boat would fit the criterial I put forward way back when. Would have doubts however about the headroom...or lack therof.

Howard

[Guest]

Love all his boats for my uses anyway. My new boat has a lot of simularites to Parker, hard chine, pointy bow and shallow draft except Parker boats are of plywood cunstruction. I do not know the design that you speak about, but will search it out. He does not have a lot on the net and is a bit vague with replies to folks, IMHO.

I see that the boat is 38 feet, with a bunch of rigging. Thats not for the faint at heart for that size.