Faver Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Hi everybody This is my first post on this group. As I am saying on the subject, I have some doubt or concerns about the following: I am thinking about the CS20 as it has the right size for my needs, I suppose. Looks good and reliable. My main concern is her weight, cause I must haul each time after sailing and I must do it on a sandy beach. Most people I spoke with discouraged me by telling that in there experienced opinion the weight limit ease should not exceed 200 Kg [440 pounds] considering two healthy adults towing it. I suppose many of you must have done that lots of times so what's your opinion? Second question: about the cat ketch rigging, I am an absolute beginner, meaning that I took my early sailings this summer so I am at an abc stage and all my experience was with an omnipresent sloop rigged dingy! Here in Italy I haven't seen many other riggings, sloop seems to be a doctor's order! I read on B&B site the article on cat ketch and of course lots of miracles are reported for that rigging but, we have a sentence in Italy: you can't ask the innkeeper if his wine is good!! It would be rare if they belittled it. Assuming that many of you have sailed both riggings would you recommend it to a rookie like me? Lets admit I might learn how to sail on a easy and laid back cat ketch, my concern then is about sailing a "real boat" ( sloop ) as I figure it to be a pretty different thing isn't it? Third and last, for now. I can't find anything on the internet about the Worrell cat, anybody knows some more? Thanks Fabio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Where is San Marino? Perhaps you could use a cart with wheels big enough to go over sand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faver Posted October 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Thank you for your reply , Greg Where is San Marino? San Marino is an independent country located in the middle of Italy an we are closed to the Adriatic sea Perhaps you could use a cart with wheels big enough to go over sand? that's right I have seen, on the net, that solid large plastic wheels are available but my issue is to find somebody who tells me : Yesss I'm doing it. no problem!! thanks again Fabio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faver Posted October 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 ...well the incline is not that steep, and as a matter of fact the dingy I sailed this summer was around 400/420 lbs and we had a wrack of a cart with poorly inflated tires ....but we were three and it was a hell of a job, probably with suitable wheels it would have been nicer. :wink: If you think that a reasonable limit should be around 300 /350 lbs, then CS20 is out of contest and the alternatives could be the CS17 , the CK 17 by Mertens or a catamaran (why not?) Unfortunately I can't afford a place in any Italian marina cause costs, so I must park the boat on the beach of our club and most salings will be few hours out an than back to beach. Of course I will get a trailer but just to be used for long distance escursions, so 90% of boat's life will be on our club's beach. thanks Ray for your contribution Fabio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I have the CS20. It is easy to move with the trailer. The boat is very light for its size. But, if most of my sailing were to involve rolling the boat up and down the beach with a set of wheels I would build a smaller boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faver Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Brent, your answer was loud and clear!! At this point if no brilliant idea pops up I must overhaul my size expects and as I said the CS17 or the CK17 by Mertens (even lighter) should be ok, pity because the CS20 seems to be much more reliable even for gusty conditions. By the way, completely different thing, roughly how long did you take to build your boat? For Ray, no way to have anything making "bim bum bam" on the beach We have a narrow lane among laying tourists. I was thinking to hammer a stake in the strand and to use a manual tackle to haul, but still I' m afraid it will be just a way to tangle my life Fabio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Burritt Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 B & B also now has a Core Sound 15 which is a nice looking boat and even lighter still. Graham could give you some idea of the weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faver Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 thank you John for your hint but I would not go under 17'. I think 300lbs with an effective cart is something I can manage, of course if it was lighter.... Fabio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lathrop Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 The CS 17 is still a pretty big day sailer and not at all "unreliable", assuming you mean seaworthy by that term. I'd consider the CS17 very capable of handling any waters a reasonable day sailor should be out in. Since I "discovered" the cat-ketch rig, it has become my favorite for all the reasons listed in Graham's article. The sloop is certainly not a step up in rig quality, just different. In our experience, the sloop is only marginally superior in performance to the cat ketch and not on all courses at that. In my biased opinion, the CK17 looks like a knock-off of the CS17. All the differences I could spot come off in favor of the CS. For one point, your need to sail off-of and on-to a beach makes the daggerboard of the CK17 a big liability. The claim of a kick-up feature on the daggerboard doesn't make this much easier. The claimed building time of 60 hours for the basic CK17 hull and 60 more to complete the boat and rig should set anyone to laughing who has ever built a boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Watford Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Too bad they don't make those carts with auxilliary power. hmmm, There is a patent in there somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 I think they do already....called a quad something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Faver, You will not be dissapointed with a CS17. At the risk of sounding like the innkeeper, let me say these are sweet sailing and very capable boats. I would not hesitate to sail a CS17 off the beach. It seems that many of us complete our boats in about a year. Some longer. Timeline is mostly a matter of how much shop time a person can devote to the project, and how well that shop time is used. Much of my shop time was spent just enjoying being there enjoying the details of building, without a big hurry to finish. ---Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faver Posted October 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Brad your post opened my eyes! I should have searched before on cart manufacturer sites! Actually who else better than them faced the problem. so I searched for Italian manufacturers and I got a confirmation that it could be done. I also should have reminded that beside us on the beach there is a wet bike rental and they haul bikes by hand, beside this the average weight of a bike goes from 600 up to nearly 800 lbs and they do it ! I shall speack with them and ask. If you hauled a Flying Scot then the CS20 would be even easier as the FS is 850 Lbs !!!! ciao Fabio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faver Posted October 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 The CS 17 is still a pretty big day sailer and not at all "unreliable"' date=' assuming you mean seaworthy by that term. I'd consider the CS17 very capable of handling any waters a reasonable day sailor should be out in. [/quote']Tom, by reliable I exactly mean seaworthy. I think I'm doing a usual mistake for a beginner that is to think the bigger it is the safer it is. I agree when you say that the CK17 could be the poor sister of CS17, even if plans are more costly. :shock: I considered it for a probable faster and easier building and more over because I got a bargain from a guy who started it and then left it actually at the stage of a kit, plywod cut ready to stich, rudder fully done, board half done and fabbric for the sails all this at the raw material price, so I thought that it could help me having the boat ready the coming summer! Since I "discovered" the cat-ketch rig' date=' it has become my favorite for all the reasons listed in Graham's article. The sloop is certainly not a step up in rig quality, just different. In our experience, the sloop is only marginally superior in performance to the cat ketch and not on all courses at that.[/quote']On which courses you think it might be superior? On my eyes, as a beginner, pure performance should not matter as much as sailing ease and safety, also thinking my sailing mostly as family sailing . ..cut For one point' date=' your need to sail off-of and on-to a beach makes the daggerboard of the CK17 a big liability. The claim of a kick-up feature on the daggerboard doesn't make this much easier. The claimed building time of 60 hours for the basic CK17 hull and 60 more to complete the boat and rig should set anyone to laughing who has ever built a boat.[/quote'] actually I don't undrstand what a "kick-up daggerboard or rudder" is, concerning the building time, yeah very very optimistic ciao Fabio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faver Posted October 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Faver' date='You will not be dissapointed with a CS17. At the risk of sounding like the innkeeper, let me say these are sweet sailing and very capable boats. I would not hesitate to sail a CS17 off the beach. [/quote'] I do believe you, as most of the people posting in this group sound basically satisfied or even enthusiast with their boat, now that my concern about the hauling such heavy things nearly faded away, the point is to chose which is best for my need whether the 17 or the 20. By the way just today I learned from my cousin that it might be possible to get a place along the harbor channel for a reasonable fare, the only problem is that you have to pass under a low bridge an every time you have to remove masts !! That's why it's cheap but still it could be more confortable than hauling the boat. In this case weight shal no longer be of concern. It seems that many of us complete our boats in about a year. Some longer. Timeline is mostly a matter of how much shop time a person can devote to the project' date=' and how well that shop time is used. Much of my shop time was spent just enjoying being there enjoying the details of building, without a big hurry to finish.---Brent[/quote'] did you build a 17 or a 20? What phase took longer in your experience? I heard that most people spend a lot of time in finishing is it so? Well in my dreams I would like to have a sailing "something" next summer but I realize that it will remain a dream, I could be prepared even to give up some finishing but I suppose the basic works is still much; working only on the weekends..... thanks Fabio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lathrop Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 The CS boats are designed with kick-up rudders to make sailing in and from shallow water easier and more controlable. It also protects the rudder from damage in a grounding. The rudder blade is fitted within two cheek plates and is held securely by a pivot bolt through both. It is held down by a line to a cleat which can be released to allow the rudder to swing up. A kick-up daggerboard is a tricky way of mounting the board within the case which is also claimed to allow it to release if the board hits something. I have no direct experience with these. In any event the board must be lifted vertically to clear the bottom in shallow water or when launching from a beach. Unless the area above the DB case is free of all rigging there can/will be fouling on a tack. Trouble is, when you run aground on a shore line, a tack is almost always called for. I own and have sailed many daggerboard boats and while they are great for some uses, a beach cruiser is not one of them. I have had a lot of experience in sailing daggerboard boats to and away form a beach and have had my fair share of problems caused by the daggerboard sticking up high above the case. All said, a centerboard like those found in the CS boats is, in most every way, far superior. Some go for the daggerboard since it is somewhat easier to build and takes up less room in the boat. For me the price is right for the centerboard. On an equal sail area basis, I would expect the sloop rig to be superior upwind. Off the wind, it is probably an even situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faver Posted October 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Ok now I got it, so the boat I sailed had a centerboard ! Actually, not that complicate to operate, unless you forget to ease the line! If I understood correctly, in case you don't ease the line the board should slide between the two side cheeks and come up with no damage. Is that ccorrect ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Nelson CS#35 Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Shock cord keeps the board down...in case of a grounding the cord stretches and lets the board move up. The cheeks are on the rudder...it kicks up too for shallow work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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