Frank Hagan Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Interesting web site for those of you interested in a larger project ... kind of a stitch and glue concept taken to steel boatbuilding that the designer calls "origami" (after the Japanese art of paper folding). http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ He's going to make the plans available to anyone after he's done with the boat. So far, it looks pretty good. Judging by how long it took me to build my little 16' Weekender, I figure if I started now I could get this one finished by 2025! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSmalser Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 I get a real kick out of the steel boat kit ads that say you can learn to weld in a day. That's certainly true for flat, horizontal welds... ...but just how many flat, horizontal welds are in a boat? Welding verticals and overheads...and welding them to standard, like required for a hull... takes a whole lot of technique. I've done farm-repair stick and gas welding for 4 decades and I'm still not very good at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt jake Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Welding verticals and overheads...and welding them to standard, like required for a hull... takes a whole lot of technique. I've done farm-repair stick and gas welding for 4 decades and I'm still not very good at them. How true that is. I just converted to MIG and it does a bang up job on horizontal but doesn't work on vertical or overhead at all; I have to convert to flux core for that (and I still am not very good at it ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeStevenson Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 We get about one person every year-and-a-half or so who wants to know if they can build a Weekender in either steel or aluminium (it varies.) I haven't the slightest idea: Can you? I know you may, but I don't know if you can! Seriously, I can't imagine it working too well. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSmalser Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 (and I still am not very good at it) On a tractor or dump truck, if banging it with the 8'b hammer doesn't break the weld, it's fine. Some of them do break, tho. Not exactly the standard I want in a vessel hull in 400' of freezing water. Dave Fleming worked aluminum for the last few decades of his shipwright career...he's know a bit about design conversions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gudschinsky Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 Although not a sail boat here is a welded aluminum homebuilt we use for a different kind of fun. Building with steel or aluminum is not especially hard if you have some years of training, skill, experience. It might be worth it for a bigger or offshore boat but for a Weekender you'd loose that wood boat charm. I actually considered going aluminum as I had the resources available and for the ease of maintance. It just wouldn't have been the same though. [attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 I have some little experience working with both Steel and Al. in marine construction. Steel is welded quite easily with a MIG setup. The ability to do overhead and vertical takes training but not impossible. Aluminum on the other hand is definitely a bird of a different feather! Welding is opposite to steel in direction, heat, environment. MIG rig with the proper shielding gas combo is crucial depending on the location. ie: indoors or out. As a general rule a 50-50 mixture of Argon and Helium is pretty standard in Al. work. Al. can be fabricated with wood working power tools ie: Skilsaw-router. Steel on the other hand requires different tools ie:cutting torches-grinders. Yes grinders are used on Al also but different type disks are needed. Each metal reacts to heat differently and this must be kept in mind when building. You can use a 'Rosebud' on steel but not on Al. to reduce warping in plate. Steel can have what is called 100% weld but the best in rule of thumb for Al is around 80% or so. Those percentages refer to the strenth of the weld vs. the plate. Al. will actually stretch before puncturing, not so Steel. Al. needs closer attention to corrosion in a marine environment and use of the proper alloys. 5000 and 6000 series are what is used. Certain metals must be isolated if used in Al boats SS comes to mind. NO copper or Bronze. I have seen it in a new build yacht where an expensive LP paint job was applied over non-isolated SS fasteners and within a couple of days the paint was bubbling and lifting off the surface. The classic example of the reaction of dissimlar metals is the case of a Herreshoff Cup Defender of the early part of the century built of Al and Bronze! Vessel barely made it through the competition when it had to be broken up for scrap. See even Capt'n Nat made mistakes! If I had my 'druthers I would build in Al from 40 feet on up and Wood below that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangermatt Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Very good point about the size. Steel in a small boat will wind up being quite a bit heavier than plywood. Once you move into the larger boats and ships this is no longer true. One reason aluminium would not be my first choice for a larger boat is work hardening causing cracks. This is especially true in areas of the hull that experience vibration such as hull plating above a high speed screw, or around the rudder post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 I admit right up front I have no experience with the problems you mention. But if you are referring to the recent Aluminum failure problem associated with some PacNoWest yards that problem as been identified and remedied. It was too much Magnesium in the 5083 H321 Alloy which caused Intergranular Corrosion. The ATSM standards have been revised to take this into account in testing. We used 5086 H116 Temper for plate and 6061 T6 for structural. Several of the boats I was involved with are going on 18 or so years old. They are Sportfisher types approx. 96 feet O/A, that take people out into the Pacific as far south as Clipperton Island and stay on the fishing grounds for a week or more. Then they return to San Diego, a round trip of up to 2000 miles. I see them every day when they are in port as I live a short walk from the docks. I know the captains well and cannot recall any complaints about the hulls. Worst scare one boat had was when a yard here doing a 'shave and a haircut' painted the bottom with Copper bearing paint. It was found out in time and removed and repainted with the proper bottom paint before the boat had a chance to hit the water. That Alcoa aluminum problem wound up costing Alcoa over $100 million USD. Some vessels required complete replating and a few had to be scrapped and replaced. Ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knut Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 I know it is probably dangerous to even think about technical and practical issues regarding the Origami steel boat project that is the basis for this string. The fact that this method resembles the Weekender process (using plywood sheets) in that no frames or molds are needed, is quite intriguing. The hull can be built directly without the need to buy lots of materials that will not be part of the boat. My main reason to post though is to ask if anyone has expeprience with the kind of hull/keel type that was presented. That is, with two daggerboards (one on each side of the hull) and ballast placed inside the bottom of the hull? How well is such a design going to work beating upwind and what about stability? To start welding such a hull, what education and training would be required to ensure the necessary quality of all welds? I know this is pretty far from the normal woodworking questions on this site, but it is anyhow still linked to messing-about in boats, so I hope there are some experts out there able to enlighten a steel working novice (even more so than with wood). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild_Dingo Posted July 24, 2004 Report Share Posted July 24, 2004 Origami boats have been around for some time now... Brent Swain the designer is from BC and designs up to 40ft Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for the 40 $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book, as below: To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 for postage to the above address. Brent's e-mail address is: brentswain38@yahoo.ca Another fella in BC also designs them up to 60ft Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@easysoftwareinc.com Aside from many web sites they have had a Yahoo group site for some years now {2000} here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ and there is more info here http://www.boatbuilding.ws/brent.htm If you go to the yahoo group and look under files there is one called "An origami model patten" which you can print out and you will get the principal of how simple this seems to be. Note all that being said without having built or bought the plans for one of these boats or the book for that matter... just as a FYI 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knut Posted July 24, 2004 Report Share Posted July 24, 2004 Thanks for the useful information regarding origami steel boats. I actually found the Yahoo group yesterday, but the link to the guys producing hulls for sale was a new one. Why don't someone tell me that this is dangerous activity? The boat building bug can be quite aggressive and is not easy to overcome. I need help. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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