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Stitch and glue Weekender?


Lefty

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Just wondering if anyone has ever constructed a Weekender using the stitch and glue method. I believe it would be more expensive, but am curious if it would be a successful method of building.

If it is possible, I would think it could open up the plans to all sorts of cool little modifications because bulkhead positions could be altered slightly, and with a little weight in the keel, a chine could even be added for a few more inches of head room in the cabin. At least that was what I was imagining.

Not being an engineer or naval architect, or even someone who was completed a Weekender yet, I realize I could also be way out in left field.

Just a thought.......

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There are a few stitch and glue Weekender's out there but the only one I can recall is Phil's boat mentioned above. I am working on a stitch and glue Pocket Cruiser of my own. The advantages of the stitch and glue are; no screws to strip out, no stringers to bend and break, no stringers to catch dirt and water, you can stop at any time and come back later to finish [because of my health it took me 4 days to join the transom, sides and bottom]. On the down side it will require some thought on how you are going to hold every thing together and in alignment until the epoxy sets up. Phil is a nice guy and was a lot of help to me.

If I can help let me know. Ed Jones < arjunas_bow@mindspring.com >

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Phil encapsulated all his panels in epoxy and some of them in glass before assembly. That presents some issues that he had to address, but he found acceptable solutions to them. I think the major one had to do with joining the side panels and encapsulating them before knowing just how they were going to fit.

Some of the panels are harder to work with when they are epoxy encapsulated and glassed before assembly. Bending them puts stress on the glass and epoxy that wouldn't otherwise be there if it were done after they were assembled. But he did a magnificent job with his "Aloha". Been an inspiration to me on my building. Stealing a lot of his ideas that worked out well for him to incorporate into my own.

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I'm building my Weekender S&G style. It's coming along just fine. I chose S&G because it gives a cleaner look in the cabin. I did the transom and lazarette with stringers because stringers are easier to work with when you're doing that heavy duty bending and they don't show in those areas. The technique has it's advantages and challenges, but it's very viable for any of these boats. I'd suggest you get a copy of Sam Devlin's book, "How to Build Any Boat the Stitch-and-Glue Way". As you read it, keep in mind, Devlin builds his boats as ocean cruisers. I'm skipping a layer of tape on some joints as I don't plan on rounding the Horn in this boat. The book is available through our generous sponsor for a paltry $16.07.

http://www.messing-about.com/cgi-bin/amazon_books.pl?input_item=0071579907&input_search_type=AsinSearch

Regarding the chine and extra headroom - many of us have just extended the mast by a foot or so and added 6"- 8" to the cabin sides. The additional chine seem like a lot of extra work, IMHO.

And do spend some time at Phil's site. It's a source of many ideas and a real inspiration. Thanks Phil.

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I started this post saying that "I believe I'm still the only one who claims to have built a stitch & glue weekender, at least around these forums. I guess as the expert :wink:, I ought to comment." Unfortunately my post was interrupted by my having to do some work at work. How inconvenient! Before posting I saw John's post. It's great to have some company. I didn't realize there was someone else out there in the experimental zone.

Stitch and glue works fine on a weekender. It should be noted that I didn't use the technique everywhere it could be used, e.g. on the seats. But on the hull, I think it offers some advantages. The inside of the hull is much easier to clean and sponge out without the chine logs. Having no screws in the hull was one of my concerns, sailing here in the Great Salt Lake. I don't see why you think it would be much more expensive. Biaxial tape and epoxy isn't really that expensive.

Along with stitch and glue I scarfed all major surfaces, i.e. the bottom and sides. This also gets rid of a lot of butt plates and makes the stitch and glue easier. You need to realize if you want to try Stitch and Glue there will be a number of assembly differences that you must consider thoroughly before you start. First of all you might want to read Devlins book: "How to build any boat in Stitch & Glue". Some differences are that you must do the bottom to side joint before the top is in place. Putting the top on last changes the way some things fit together. As Barry stated I had some issues with my scarfed sides fitting, because I didn't realize that the joining angle for the side scarf is indeterminate, not 90

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Hehe. One thing I've always admired about you is your ability to multitask. Build, click and write. Build, click and write. Sail, click and write. Sail, click and write. How many cameras and keyboards did you gunk up with epoxy and saw dust? Your site is an absolute chronicle of building and sailing and prose. Very impressive. Thanks for all that effort. It really is inspirational.

I'm sorta the "one thing at a time" kinda guy, but I'll see what I can scare up.

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I'm about to start a dory S&G style. Has anyone tried using zip ties to 'stich' instead of wire? I've heard it's slightly easier but slightly more delicate. I bought Sam Devlin's a year and a half ago before I decided to build the Weekender, it was one of the only books that the bookstore had on boat building but none-the-less it's a good resource on S&G and boat-building in general.

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The replies are fantastic and encouraging. I can't believe how many questions I had in my head, didn't put in the post, but saw information regarding them.

I was happy to see that the price wouldn't go up considerably to try this method. My reasoning for using stitch and glue on a weekender is because I know I am not going to be exposing it to very hard conditions, this would be an ideal way to eperiment for a later project, and it seems like it would be lighter.

The Devlin book is on my list. I checked B & N and our library with no luck, but am happy to see Amazon has it.

Another remark that struck me because I was considering it as well was to use screws in some areas where they would be more convenient, not just stitch and glue everywhere.

One thing I am curious about: both sides of the joints/seams have epoxy and fiberglass tape, but are both sides of the hull and deck panels also glassed, or just the outside? It is something I have been confused about as I read and look at my plans.

As I had stated in another post, the Weekender is still in the planning stages because the Minicup isn't even done yet!

Thanks for all the info.

--Phil, I did check your website....I really like the extra work you did on it especially the lighting and that great paint job. Has the paint held up well?

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tdrown

On my first boat I considered using plastic ties but had some 14 gauge copper so that's what I used. To remove it, I clipped one side of the stitch close to the wood then heated the long end with a small propane torch to melt the epoxy and pulled the stitch out with linesman's pliers. Quite easy when using heat (a soldering gun would work too), and all but impossible without it. When the stitches are out, go back and fill the small holes with some thickened epoxy (pancakes again) pushed through a small syringe.

Once I got into the project, I realized that ties wouldn't be strong enough to do any heavy bending unless they were a pretty large size. Then the large holes would allow even thickened epoxy to leak out requiring lots of cleanup and/or sanding. The advantage is you save the pulling and filling steps but a some cost. It's always a trade off.

Lefty

Tape on both sides of the joints, glass cloth goes only on the outside. The real function of the glass cloth is to prevent checking of fir plywood and provide some abrasion protection. I

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As noted above (and proven by the beautiful resultant boat) our designs can certainly be built with Stitch-&G. We don't build this way our selves ands don't recommend it for these reasons: The screws do add strength and hold things nicely while gluing (and if you want to use urea resin glue or urethane Gorilla-type glues you have to screw-&-g), and the stringers are a very important part of fairing the hull shapes. If you don't use stringers, you're going to have to be cautious about getting really fair-looking curves on your panels ahead of time and certain points in our plans don't take stitching into account (the hull sides go on blind and get trimmed to fit.)

Personally, I prefer our older concept, but either will work if you're willing to go to the extra effort for the stitching.

Mike

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Tyler,

I think the ties would work where forces are gentle - perhaps on the sides. However, in areas like on the transom to bottom joint, I had my steel wire breaking until I got some heavy gauge wire. There is a lot of tension holding those pieces together.

John,

All the reading I did indicated problems with wire removal. I decided to avoid all that by tacking the pieces together with a dab of glue between each wire tie, wait till it was solid enough to remove the wire and fillet the whole thing. It seemed to work fine. The tape I used was the 24 oz. biaxial tape. It is really heavy stuff and requires a lot of epoxy to wet it out.

boat0026.jpg

I used it inside and out. I had some extra left over and used it to beef up the bottom of the keel. I have had some problems there with delamination that I believe is due to not enough epoxy to wet it out. This has been a winter project. I'll have some pictures and discussion eventually. I don't recall if I used fiberglass in the inside of the sides or not. The bottom I glassed both surfaces.

Here is a picture that shows what the stringerless joints look like.

boat0238.jpg

Lefty,

The paint is holding up really well. I hoped it may last for maybe 5 years before redoing it. By keeping it out of the sun I think it will last longer. Of course you have to do little touch up jobs. You can't expect a boat that is used to go without some dings. The most effort in maintenance goes to the varnish touch up especially on the rub rails. I must admit that varnished mahogany rub rails are a bit silly, but they still look pretty good.

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Nice-looking bi-ax. We use the 24, or preferablly, the 16oz for our CycleKart glassing. On the Valkyrie our lay-up was four layers of 24oz at once (w/a mat scrim on each.) I can't imagine doing that now. I think we were a little mad (and some of our wives might say more than a little...)

We have really come to like the knitted bi-axial fabrics (either 0-90 or 45-45, depending on what's going on.) They're so much stronger than roving it's a joke. And best of all, they can be dry fit (shaped ahead of time to save lay-up time) amazingly; Peter made himself a vintage racing helmet as he couldn't find any which looked like what his favorite old driver used to wear. He ended up shaping a piece of knit to wrap into a complete hemisphere (but with the subtle shape he wanted.) Cool stuff.

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