Roger Peterson Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 In the "sealed Watertight compartments", I was going to add foam for a safety factor in case of a puncture or crack from grounding or whatever. My question is, should all of the "glued enclosed compartments" have an access port for venting to reduce the the chance for dry rot? Can I use pour in place foam or should I use foam board cut to fit? Will the foam making contact with the wood inside the sealed compartment be a problem? Any opinions? Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 My canoes all have foam block flotation. When putting in the blocks I took care to allow air circulation all around the block. Many commercial sailboats have sealed compartments filled with foam flotation , and moisture seems to always find a way to work in and saturate the foam over time, resulting in a heavy boat that is wet on the inside. Bad. I do not like the 'make your own foam in-situ' as it fills up the compartment, leaving no air circulation. A number of our friends over on the main forum use construction grade foam to provide emergency flotation for their weekenders etc. See that thread for more details. My CS has flotation compartments that are sealed but not foam filled. I figure that in a worst case swamped boat scenario they might slowly fill with water, but will provide plenty of time to for me to react before the boat goes negatively buoyant. In my opinion, an access port for each compartment is a good idea. Be aware that these ports are often the path by which moisture enters, so they are the cause and the solution to the water instrusion problem. Incidently, I have had the CS out in screamer conditions, and while the gunwales did get washed off nicely, the boat was never in danger of capsize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Blackburn Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Brent makes the real point here, if you have ever owned a Laser... you will NEVER tip a cs20 etc. They are chalk and cheese. It is important to have flotation but build the boat to have fun with, trully it is not a tippy "thang" as you Americans would say... Rob from Oz ps we have our sailing club xmas party on Sunday and I have had 4 emails asking if we are taking our boat for people to have a go of... Graeme must be doing something right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Nelson CS#35 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Personally, I would not use flotation unless it is absolutely necessary. The wood floats. There are multiple air chambers. It would take a major collision to breach all air chambers. If you wear personal flotation, its not going to take that much to keep her afloat. Flotation is a sourse of moisture collection and a higher degree of rot potential. Air has the same flotation properties as foam as long as the chamber is viable. I think the best is a simple air chamber with a good quality round screw in hatch for venting when not in use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangermatt Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 I chose the cs-17 because of the built in flotation in water tight compartments. When I was working on commercial vessels regulations required that a vessel stay afloat and maintain "damaged" stability with any two consecutive compartments flooded. I have no doubt that the coresound could do this with both fore and aft compartmants flooded, or probably one or both side compartments flooded. I think the "damage stability" would be an issue if one side and the cockpit flooded. Of course these are only guesses, it would be interesting to do the math on this. The more practical question is what level of "damage stability" do we expect from a 17 foot boat? What I am concerned about is that if I do somehow roll or swamp the boat it floats high enough to bail which Graham has shown it will. If I do enough damage to be concerned about damage stability in a boat this size I probably didn't survive the impact :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Hibbert. Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Some uk boat builders are using large 2litre drinks bottles to fill airtight compartments.It gets over the problems with foam, but still provides buoyancy in the event of a leak. Cheap as well ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Peterson Posted December 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Thanks for all the great replys! I think I'll forget about the foam... I do like the idea of using the 2 liter soda bottles but I think I'll just use the "Air" in the watertight compartments and add inspection ports for ventilation and keeping my eye out for rot. I guess this way I'll be able to use the compartments for stowage of small stuff that always collect in boats. Thanks again for your thoughts... Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lathrop Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 These boats do not need any foam or other "floatation" materials inside the air tanks. If you don't build the tanks to be watertight, you will have more trouble if there is floatation stuff inside than if there is only air. Pour-in foam is not waterproof and should never be used in a boat. Lots of waterlogged glass hulls around to prove that. The ports in the tanks should be located so that all parts of the tank can be reached with your arm if they are to have anything stored in them. One nice idea for small stuff like glasses, wallet, etc. is to have a bag with a drawstring attached to the port cover so it can be retreived easily. Graham is using a new port with a large easy-open cover that he says is very good and maybe waterproof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangermatt Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 I would be interested in knowing some details on the port Graham is using. I had originally planned on building some nice custom cedar trimmed hatches. After looking at some finished boat pictures I think I want something lower profile that doesn't destract from the clean lines of the boat. Some of the Lewmar flush hatches maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Peterson Posted December 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Maybe when graham gets back from his vacation he can fill us in on the new hatch. I like the wooden raised hatches on the decks (kind of an "old salty look") but I 'd rather have flush, dry hatches in the seats for regular stowage. I'm searching the local bookstores in my area for some of the older boatbuilding books for tips on interior joinery after a failed effort at waterproof hatch framing. At least I'm having fun trying to come up with something that works! Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kinnane Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 I read somewhere recently that empty inflated bladders from wine casks worked well as a floatation aid. The good part is that you have to empty them before they are able to be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 I was over to the great ones place a while back, and was exposed to the hatch he is using in the cs15. My take on this and other issues concerning the sealed, not sealed, foam flotation, not flotation stuff, access boxes, no excess boxes, would be this. I have always used foam sealed deck grids for runabouts. See these two threads that discuss foaming in. This gives several sides to the issue, not just how Graham does it. If desired in future boats or future building, these maybe of help to you. But Grahman swears by his methods, and there seems to be a lot of reinforced comments on the stability of these boats, so I would tend to go with the flow here, on sealed boxes. As a side note on this, for the hatched units now, see if the flotation chambers will fit in the sealed, hatched areas, as an additional alternative measure, if you this would make you feel better in ths matter. These are purchased at many of teh marine stores, ordered in, if you have to purchase these this way. http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008533 http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003145 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Jones Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Ijust read those threads Mike, at least the first one- I see B.C. was being his usual assinine self Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 I read somewhere recently that empty inflated bladders from wine casks worked well as a floatation aid. The good part is that you have to empty them before they are able to be used. An interesting idea John. Wonder what the dimensions of the bladders are and if it will matter after draining them......hmmmm, new book idea? "Boat Building With Wine"? :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lathrop Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Charlie, you're too rough on B.C. You just gotta remember that he is secretary of Ludites International and has to keep up appearances. Many of the old fishermen refused to learn to swim based on similar reasoning. Natural selection has somewhat remedied that situation. I'm a pretty fair sailor and all my small boats have floatation and self bailers, with no appologies to anybody. Happiness is that gurgling sound from the bailer when the spray is coming over the side. Tom Lathrop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Great reply, Tom. I also make no excuses for my foam. I also despise the usual comments of ROT in encapsulated wood without hesitation from so many "experts". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Oyster, I was looking at your pictures of the voids opened on your boat. It was hard for me to tell if you had any rotting or delamination problems, and I do not think you said you did not. Were there any? I work at Whirlpool. There is a process for making prototype parts using gypsum powder. Once the part is formed it is then hardened with either a "super" glue or West Systems 105 epoxy with a hardner. We put the epoxy on thin at first since the gypsum is very porous, then another coat or more. No matter how much epoxy we use, sealed containers will leak water to the other side in a matter of hours. It is true this is not a wood laminate, but from this it would seem that epoxy is not a complete sealer. It is applied per the manufacturer's recommendations. Opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Hibbert. Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 My vote is with the wine bladders .Easier to fit and remove than bottles and my wife has just volunteered to make an imediate start on emptying them. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF YOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 I am changing the deck layout and have removed part of the aft section. Some of the darker white areas in the center and aft bilge is a little bilge grime. I am also changing the casting platform, therfore needing to remove some of the foam foward of the side seats. The dark section on the starboard side shows old glue and shadow area. I have built cold moulded since 1985. Some problems has come up in plywood, but not because of being simply encased by glass and resin. A lot of problems comes from raw end grains, starved bedding compounds on screws drawn up to tight, , or silicone bedding compounds being used. I won't use this thread to discuss some items that can solve a lot of delaminations in constructions of hulls, using plywood. But million dollar hulls are built with complete success, laminated and encapsulated wood construction. Adding foam does not add water in an area completely filled with foam, unless water gets to the foamed on area through cracks left alone, or screws too long for the projects, giving the water from the outside a track. In many cases, we use small blocks glued to a deck, and taped with glass, and then screw consoles through the sides to these blocks instead of screwing down with flanges, if the consoles are glass construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Luckett Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 The old Skipjack, which I mentioned earlier, was badly abused, and more than 20 years old when I got it. The delamination problems were caused by water getting between the poured foam in the void between the sole and the hull. Letting snow, ice, and water sit in it for years did not help at all. I opened up the void as much as I could without cutting out the sole, then let it dry for a year, rolled her over and tested the damage to the hull. She could not dry well via the normal ports because of the foam. Bottom line was a wasted boat, but not due to the foam. I still made out with a good set of sails, spars, rudder/tiller, center board (Aluminum), and a nice trailer. Well spent money on my part....$300. The boat is sitting in my back yard on a skid being used by my young boys to stretch their imaginations. My Dad had an old row boat that my friends and I used to play Vikings, pirates, fishing, space ships, river boating in the jungle, etc. I do not trust air tight voids to remain free of water, so use the blue foam. To those who keep stating wooden boats float and do not need floataion, they should look at the history better. Wooden boats and ships sank and still do sink all the time. The Great Lakes are littered with thousands of them in just the last 200 years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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