Dave R1 Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Gaylen, re: screws. I screwed the layers of the of keel together when I glued it up. When I did it, I wasn't all that careful about where I put screws because I knew my keel was going to be painted anyway. I was just thinking that it would be a shame to paint over a mahogany keel. If you want to finish it bright, i.e. varnished, think about laying out the screw holes so you'll have nice, straight lines. Counterbore for the screws so you can then bung (plug) the holes. Of course predrill all screw holes and use properly sized screws so that the two pieces aren't jacked apart by the screws. This could actually be the reason so folks have delamination problems with their keels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasPhil Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Wow, what a world! Honduran Mahogany cheaper than pine and Douglas Fir. I would buy all the Mahogany I could! Store it and use it for everything. I think someone else pointed out the fact that the US Government has just ordered something like 600 truckloads of US construction grade wood, hence the price increase. I really hate the fact that, in the scheme of things, we are getting screwed by our government, again. I wish they would open up more lumber harvesting to compensate, so that our prices don't go up... in a way, this lets the Terrorists win! Sorry about the Rant! Anyway, I suspect the prices will return to "normal" in a while. It may be a year, but they will come back down. They did when Hurricane Andrew hit Florida, remeber... the prices went way up for a while, as the demand to rebuild when up... then came down. I just wish the Government would compensate and increase the supply when the demand goes too high, especially when they cause the demand! Gaylen, It looks like you are in a very interesting spot... due to the inflated prices, you have the opportunity to build your boat out of a CHOICE material. A material that has been used in boat construction for a long time. Good luck... I think the pressure is on to build a really nice boat now! :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylen Beardsley Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Wow' date=' what a world!Gaylen, It looks like you are in a very interesting spot... due to the inflated prices, you have the opportunity to build your boat out of a CHOICE material. A material that has been used in boat construction for a long time. Good luck... I think the pressure is on to build a really nice boat now! :wink:[/quote'] :multi: I think you are right, and here I am Mr. "NO patience at all, let's get it in the water right away" guy. :? I hate attention to detail, that's why a trained accountant is driving bus for the local transit company. I think it all started with my mother... :wink: I did tell my wife that I wanted to do this on right, and concentrate on craftsmanship with this project. After all, the whole world will be watching as she goes together, and with the beautiful boats you guys have built, well...there is quite a high standard. Instead of plugging, isn't there a way where I can take sawdust or sanding residue and make a filler for the screw holes? I think somebody on the forum did that, or was it somewhere else I read that? :? Seems it might be easier than plugging :?: Got to go check the budget and prepare the wife for a trip to Puyallup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt jake Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 They also have a store in Bremerton, though I have never been there. Might be closer to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasPhil Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Instead of plugging' date=' isn't there a way where I can take sawdust or sanding residue and make a filler for the screw holes?[/quote']Yes, I have done that... You take the sawdust (sanding dust is better) and mix it with your epoxy. You want a lot of dust, almost making a paste, but not too dry!!! If it is too "wet" you will get little floaties in clear epoxy... not what you want. It has a nice look to it, but not nearly as nice as plugging. Plugging is not difficult, if you have a bung hole cutter (sorry, that sounds bad... but that is the right name for it). Basically it cuts plugs out of scrap material of a certain diameter, which should be the same diameter of the drilled screw hole. Put some glue in the hole, put the plug in the hole, pound it in with a hammer, trim it with a saw, and sand it flush. Plugs look really nice, especially if you use contrasting wood. Or are very concealed if you use the same wood. Try it before you commit to the Epoxy or Plugging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P Doug (WA) Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Gaylen, the Building Material Outlet in Bremerton is located on 3405 11th street, (360-377-1800) (found it on the internet). I will be over there this next week to greet the USS Carl Vinson, coming home from a 10 month cruise. My son has only been gone that long surely his wife will let us take time to visit that store. (Maybe run up to Grizzly in Bellingham also, would that be pushing it a bit much?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylen Beardsley Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Well, I took the first step. Captn Jake was so right when he directed me to the Materials Outlet. I found all the CLEAR (I mean NO knots) Souther Yellow Pine I want. They didn't have the length I needed at the one store in Bremerton, but the man who works there is going to stop by the main store and bring me what I need. He said he knows now what I want and will get it for me. He also said that since he doesn't know when they will get more of that dense yellow pine, he will put some in a pile and save it for me until I am sure I won't need any more. Since they got it in, no one has asked for any. The final price (fanfare please) $3.25 lin ft. The fir they had there was $3.00 a foot, but had a few knots. The Fir they were selling for $1.00 a lin ft, was crap, I mean scrap that was left over from selling all the other good stuff for $3.00 a foot. Am I rambling... :? Just feeling good about the deal I got. Oh, by the way, they have lots of the Honduran Mahogany, but they could not find any 12" wide. Bummer. Might even make sawdust next week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt jake Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I may have to buy some of the southern yellow to..... what am I saying??? I don't have a place to store it yet! It is great stuff to work with and it demensionally stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave R1 Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Gaylen, my experience with mixing sanding dust with epoxy is that the mix will be darker than the sanding dust by itself. So, if you mix mahogany dust into your epoxy, you'll end up with darker "plugs" than the wood itself. Plugs are easy to do. Take some of your scraps and drill a bunch of plugs using a tapered plug cutter. Don't drill quite through the wood. Put masking tape over the top of all the plugs and then rip the stock across the plugs on the bandsaw or tablesaw to cut the plugs free. Make a whole mess of them. When you glue them in, the tapered end goes first and make sure the grain is aligned with the grain of the wood being plugged. You shouldn't need to pound them in too hard. BTW, my #8 drill for wood screws drills a counterbore for which my plug cutter is matched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylen Beardsley Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Thanks, I will be doing some of that during the finish work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt jake Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Yup!! Wood four mixed with epoxy is harder than concrete to sand!!! I bought a plug cutter set from Harbor Frieght for about $15. It worked out great!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylen Beardsley Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 I have been looking at the diagram that was plut on the forum to show the different cuts of wood. I am not so sure that the Southern Yellow Pine that I looked at was not cut plain. I did not get a look at the end of the boards. when I am looking at the flat surface of the board, what should I be seeing. Ever larger circles, or just stright lines? Dang! :x :x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave R1 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Gaylen, plain sawn will have the "ever larger circles" while quarter sawn will have long lines the length of the board. Quarter sawn is much more stable wood--less prone to expansion and contraction across the width of the board--than plain sawn. Quarter sawn lumber is more costly mbecause you can't get as much of it from a single log as you can plain sawn. I'll try to find some resources for you. here's a link or two" http://www.allwoodwork.com/article/plainorquartersawn.htm http://royalcraftsman.com/quartered-rift.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylen Beardsley Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 If you are buying kin dried lumber then you should be some what safe; the boards have done the majority of their movement and all you have to worry about is what they will due when they absorb moisture from their environment and swell. I have quoted from one of the sources that you gave to me. According to them, (above) if the lumber is kiln dried already, then not much to worry about. My question is just how important is the difference in this application given that it will be sealed (GOOD) and kept from moisture? I hate to spend so much extra for lumber, when the difference REALLY does not mean that much in this instance. I suppose I can go get the lumber in Doug Fir, which is the same price. I really haven't lost anything from what I first intended to use. The Mahogany would have been nice, and if I could use narrower pieces side laminated together, I would do that. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylen Beardsley Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 How about that guys, I one did the laminate so that the lines were not in line length way as well as up and down, could one use 10" inch boards and laminate then trim. I could use the Mahogany that way. So many options, so little cooperation from the wood. :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 When you look at the surface of a plain sawn board, you will see grain running in parallel (more or less) curved patterns all over the face of the board. Some of the grain lines will run out the sides at some pretty great angles. With a board that is quarter sawn or Vertical grain, the grain patterns are pretty tight together, parallel and running the length of the board with very shallow angles of runout. These pieces of wood don't have a tendency to cup or warp or as much of a tendency to split. If you lay a plain sawn board down in a dry place and just let it sit, it will cup across the width of the board with the changes in season and humidity. Even kiln dried material has moisture in it and wood will absorb moisture from the air. It doesn't stay at the 10-12% moisture content that is kiln dried specs. Just look at a wooden deck with some wide boards on it. If they were placed with the crown down, they are rounded over on top, if they were placed with the crown up they are cupped up at the edges. Even if they are under cover and not exposed to direct rainfall, they still do the same thing. When these boards are placed cup side to cup side and glued together, they will have a tendency to want to pull apart. Depending upon the strength of the wood, they may or may not. If you place the rounded side to rounded side they want to cup and pull the edges apart. Even sealed with epoxy, fiberglass and covered with paint. The stress is still there in the wood. Over time and with freeze/thaw cycles, some of them will separate. If that is hidden by fiberglass, then it won't be seen but the moisture still collects in the void caused by the separation. Eventually it rots and at some point it gets bad enough that it gets noticed. And then we need to remove the rot, fill the void and make the repairs. So this is why we recommend either quartersawn or vertical grain lumber to make the laminated keel. It is more stable and has less of a tendency to want to separate. Probably more than you want to know and less than is really necessary to understand wood movement. Just accept that it happens and we can help to prevent problems by selecting the right materials to begin with. It doesn't have to be knot free, it doesn't have to be vertical grain Doug Fir, but if you have a pile of good material to choose from, then why not take the best boards you can get for your use? In the overall picture, a few dollars more is a small part of the entire investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylen Beardsley Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 So right. I understood all of what you were saying. I will indeed get the right grain, or I will not buy the wood. I am in a place where I do not have to be in pain over a $1 or 2 per foot. they have Doug Fir there, and I will take what I have to take to do it right. Do you have a comment about the laminated Mahogony? Sort word or two will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Pyeatt Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 It has less of a tendency to cup and warp, but it is brittle and if it has a grain runout that is pretty pronounced, it will split at that point when bent. Again, for stringer use, you want the straightest grain possible with as little runout as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Williamson Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Here are a couple of boards--CVG doug fir. [attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylen Beardsley Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Ya, Jan that's what I am looking for. everybody wants to sell me any other stuff but that. Lumbermans up here has CVG at $6.99 but 12 ft is the longest. Still wondering about plywood (maranti) or edge gluing the Hondural mahogany to 12" wide then measure out the keel. Would like Barry to comment on that one. I know the grain needs to be right, but I can't get the widths. :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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