"Harbor As Classroom" - Boatbuilding in Brooklyn

[Frank Hagan]

Great story in the Wall Street Journal which you can read by Clicking Here

Its a great idea. What a way to get kids interested in education.

[Bill]

Kinda makes you wanna go back to school eh?

It sounds like a great little program. I am sure people from the neighborhood are willing to try anything to get the kids interested. Since most of us reading this forum are interested in all things Nautical, I'm sure it would be greeted with a lot of OOhhs and Aahh's.

I think breaking up the huge public school systems in NY is probably a good idea, but it seems as though it would be tough to properly control 44 smaller ones as they seem to be trying. You might have the Maritime kids in one group and an Aviation or Arts group in another? Will they all receive the same basics in education? I just hope it's not a band-aid on what already seems to be a much larger problem, that will fail to to lack of interest and funding down the road. Being able to tie a bowline won't help you much in the line of potential employees at the IT job fair...

They say most of the kids are seriously lacking skills as they "enter" the Ninth grade. Seems to me they are playing "catch up"! I'd be asking why the heck it gets that far. Be really nice if they could involve the parents more in some way. That seems to be a bridge that needs bonding in many of these neighborhoods. So much of the care needs to start right at home. Just reading and a little discussion with a child at bedtime can work miracles.

Sorry, if I ramble on..I was an Education major in college and saw so many stop-gap ideas and band-aid solutions, based on personal interests of the teachers it made me sick...seems like the red-tape, smoke and mirrors, and piles of paperwork, clouded everyones vision about the very people they were supposed to be helping, the students! I don't want to be a Naysayer here, I really do wish them luck. If anything, I'm glad they are at least approaching the problem..

I hope this project isn't just injecting new epoxy into rotten wood and hoping the whole thing floats.

Bill

[TexasPhil]

Hey Frank... How's this for being involved.... We home school our daughter.

[Frank Hagan]

Home schooling wasn't for us, but I have a lot of respect for the people who do it. The last national spelling bee champion was home schooled, and the stats show they do better on acheivement tests. Its hard to get more involved in your kid's education than you do home schooling!

My main gripe about the "system" we have is the bureauacracy above the teachers, with all the mandates given the schools and the layer after layer of management in the district offices.

But that's really far from what I have been thinking about for a long time, since I built my boat, that the math I used in calculating angles, lofting panels, etc. was pretty interesting. I hated math in school, but building a boat gave it a practical purpose, and I thought it would make a great teaching tool. Kind of sneaks the stuff into regular life. Much more interesting than trying to figure out where those trains speeding toward each other actually meet ...

[TexasPhil]

I can fully understand the reluctance to home school. It is difficult, and takes quite a bit of time. But, for us, it is well worth it. One of our problems, but not the only problem, is that our daughter has a severe case of ADHD. My son has it too, but not as severe as the girl. He is 10 years older and decided to go to public school instead. After seeing how well they dealt with his ADHD, there is no way I want her to go and be subject to that. They don't know how to handle kids with ADHD, and I don't want to hear from the teacher on a daily bassis.

Another problem is that she is very bright and very curious. I have seen them stomped out of kids soooo many times, and I think they are GOOD traits and should be allowed to grow and flurish.

As far as her school work.... it goes at her pace, some subjects are more advanced than others, but most are well above the rate at public school. She is having difficulty with math, but has a good understanding of it because we go slowly, instead of being swamped and doing poorly. The ticket is to find things that she is interested in, and exploit those interests to do work in various subjects. For example, she is interested in horses, so she has checked out EVERY book on the subject at the library. She has started horsemanship lessons, not horseriding lessons. The difference is you learn how to take care of the animal as well as how to ride. Some of her spelling words are geared towards horses, and so on.

I agree with your main gripe about the "system" as well, and I am as frustraited as you about the bureauacracy above the teachers. Personally, I think there should be no more than a principal, vice principals, their small admin staff, librarians, nurses, and custodians at the school. That's it. No one else should be paid by the school system. Just get rid of all the administration, management and red tape. I like the idea of a non-paid school board. That way they are there to discuss the needs of the school and are not there because of their pocketbook.

I am TOTALLY frustraited that the majority of the money goes to those above the teachers, next is to the school buildings, and last is to the teachers and the classroom requiremnts. Furthermore, our schools received less money from the bureauacracy than is taken in taxes. In other words, the Feds and State take our local taxes and give back only a portion of what they took..... That's wrong. And we don't live in a rich town. There is more than enough money for education, but you gotta get rid of the expensive dead weight... at the TOP, not at the bottom. Let's see.... fire one administrator or fire 10 teachers.... hummmm

I think using a boating experience based education would be a good idea, but only for those kids that have an interest in boats. If the program also caries other interests, I could see it work. But it would be too easy to get out of hand. I also think small schools are better than a huge one. True you get fewer choices at smaller schools, but you get better one-on-one attention. I can't immagine how many kids went to school in one building if it is going to be split into 44 schools.... lets see 44 schools with 4 classes of 25 each... 100 students (very small scool) 100 students * 44 schools = 4400 students.... That is totally unreasonable and unmanagable. Many colleges do not even have 4400 students!

[Frank Hagan]

I agree with what you said on the system, and would also like to see the "District School Board Offices" shut down (they should share space at one of the schools). Its difficult today, though, in that there are so many mandated programs that are, in effect, featherbedding for administrators.

Having known people with ADHD kids, I know the normal system just isn't adequate for them, and think what you are doing is absolutely great! On the math issue, neo-feminists aside, boys and girls can learn different things at different stages. Girls are usually better at math much later than boys. My oldest daughter had math "click" for her finally at UC Irvine, after slogging through all her math classes up until then. Finally, it just made sense to her. Its not unusual for girls to have trouble with math up until 17years old or later. So the pace you set, and the structure you're giving, couldn't be better.

We're used to every piece of wood we work on being unique. We know we have to look at the grain, how much its running out, knot or wormholes that need a work-around or even highlighting, etc. But we often forget people are like that too, and need individual attention to best meet their needs.

The Boatbuilding High School will probably fail because the majority of kids won't benefit ... even though there are tons of kids who could who live elsewhere in the city.

The Stevenson's had an offer a while back for any shop class to get plans, with the idea that boatbuilding could teach a lot more than where to loft a line. And I have had correspondance with a vocational arts teacher in our state prison system that uses boatbuilding as a way to instill pride in people who can still have that feeling of accomplishment perhaps ignite a spark. So I think it has merit on an individual basis.

[TexasPhil]

I agree Frank,

I think the boating high school will fail; not because it is a bad idea, nor because of a lack of interest, but because every kid going to that school will not have the level of interest to sustain it, and because of the bureauacracy.

I think it would have a chance if each and every student gets the choice of which school to attend and if they make concessions to allow them to change.

On the other hand, I am glad to see them attempting to fix their problems. WIth a poor reading ability and only 25% of the incomming freshmen graduationg, they need to do something. Splitting their school into 3 schools is probably a good idea. Many of the schools are Way too large. I just hope they have the currage to scrap any programs that do not work.

Assuming the 125 freshmen going into the boating program is a third of the entire freshmen class, there are 375 freshmen. Approximately 281 sophmores, 188 juniors, and 94 seniors. So approximately 938 students in the Bushwick High School... way too many. My approximation is probably low, as there are probably some seniors that drop out and I doubt if they put 1/3 of all the freshmen in the boating school.

Personally, I wish I had the opportunities these kids are getting, or even the oportunities my son had. As a freshman, he was issued a laptop. He could have structured his classes to take advanced subjects like calculus, chemistry, and physics (at college levels, with college credit). Instead he opted for the "barely get by" and "not college bound" program. What a shame :cry:

[Frank Hagan]

My oldest did the study-hard, go to university, become a bio-chemist thing. My youngest found that while "D's" mean you pass the class, they don't count for anything with even the state colleges. So she's attending community college.

Our deal was always that we would pay the way if they went to a university (both are capable of it). And would pay for everything except books for a 4 year state college. And wouldn't charge rent if they maintained 12 units at a community college. After working over the summer at a wonderfully crummy job where she found people doing the same boring thing for the last 25 years, she decided carrying 12 units wasn't such a bad idea at all. We have our fingers crossed, but at 18, we also have to learn to let go and let her learn from failing too.

What a waste is right. Neither of them know this, but the youngest, "do the minimum" kid has the slightyly higher IQ. Go figure. She's never been as mature as the older kid, but she is more outgoing. I can only hope there's a spark that will direct all that energy into something useful!

If she didn't remind me of ME so much at that age, I would be really upset! :?

[TexasPhil]

Yup I hear you Frank. I am glad you got one that you won't have to worry about. She sounds like she has here head on straight!

My son, is quite capable, as his grades show.... 100, 100, 100, 0, 100, 0, 100, 0, 100, 0, 0 ... Those zeros really hurt the GPA. But he says "its only a number... who cares"

Well, due to a bad situation here... Last year he went to California for his Junior year. Because of the graduating requirements here in Texas, he was inelgible for graduating this year, so he had to go back to California in order to graduate. So, he is living with his grandfather now.

I offered him a similar college deal: Make the grades to qualify for a university, and I would pay. But I don't see that happening :cry:

But then again... he has yet to show initiative to get his driver's license. Starting way back, before he turned 15 (permit age) I told him that I would pay if he qualified for the good student discount (B average with nothing below a C), otherwise, he would pay the difference in insurance and half the class fees. He has never achieved the B average, has always had a D or two.... But again he is quite capable, just doesn't want to do it.

I think his best option is to join the military. He says that he wants to, but won't join up until he graduates. He tends to tell people what he thinks they want to hear, and then doesn't follow up.

I hope he gets his act together soon... right now he is just a slug.

[Bill]

No doubt, the spark sometimes gets lit a bit later in life. I absolutly hated to read (anything) until I was in my mid-twenties. Somewhere/sometime in the Military I picked up a few books to kill the boredom. Now I always have about three going at any one time. Erica and I have agreed that we want to have a library in our next home. I already have too many book cases in the livingroom, bedroom and cellar..not to mention box loads in the attic.

The biggest draw back to having started my reading fetish so late in life is that I am now getting old enough so I constantly run around saying "now, where the hell did I read that thing i'm looking for...."

We are blessed with her 7 year old who loves to read, and we spend quite a bit of time reading with her. (Gee, those Mary-Kate and Ashley books, just keep me on the edge)....

B.

[Frank Hagan]

Your son sounds just like my youngest daughter! We said "no b's, no keys" and thought that would work. And it was always what we wanted to hear too ... "I'm pulling a B average in everything!" and then two weeks later the report card would come with Cs and Ds.

I would have killed for a car and license at 16 (well, actually, I went to work to afford a car by the time I was 16! I was working 20 hours a week at 15, and then 33 per week at 16, then 40 a week after that while in school ... those were the maximums the state would allow at that time.) I couldn't figure out why, but she waited until she was 18 to get her license. At that point I told my wife our goals had to change ... it was now find a way to make her a productive citizen so she wouldn't be a 40 year old child living at home who doesn't drive!

Being out of school and working for a few months really helped her. She seems more focused, but time will tell. Maybe like Bill says, the spark comes later.

[TexasPhil]

I sure hope my son gets the spark sometime soon. He turns 18 in November. According to the state (Texas) he will be an adult, and is fully responsible for his own actions. (Actually, at 16 he is fully responsible, but until he is 18 we have legal responsibility for him).

Anywhat, I am kinda glad that he has not had the ambition to get his license... at least it did not affect my insurance, my car has not been all crumpled up, or smell like his feet... or worse, oh wait... there is nothing worse than the smell of his feet.

Grandpa is just as frustrated as am I about his lack of ambition, and his lieing.

I think he is not going make any progress until he is out on his own. That is, afterall, all he wants. We will see.

[Frank Hagan]

You know what Mark Twain said, he was amazed at how much his father had learned between the time he left home at 18 and came back 2 years later.

As long as they don't self-destruct, freedom can be sobering.

[Pat Mellema]

Phil

My son had no ambition at all through high school. He was out of school for a year and a half and decided he didn't know what to do as he had had several jobs and wasn't happy with any of them. He decided to join the Marines and sence that time he has had a purpose. He has changed in ways that I never thought he would. He has taken reading up as a way to fill in the time he is bored and has grown a bunch. If he would have stayed here he may not have made it to be 21. The Marine corps has made him into a man from the kid he was. It is a good thing

[TexasPhil]

I hear you Pat and Frank.

I hope he follows through and joins up too. He said that he wants to join the Air Force. I think that would be the best thing for him.

The hard part is sitting back and letting him make his own mistakes. I want to jump in and fix his problems, but he needs to learn to do that on his own. I will be here if he needs me, but I have to let him make those mistakes. That's hard!

[Russ Sylvester]

It's very easy to sit and take potshots at the public school system. Don't get me wrong, I think home schooling has its merits but you are dealing with one or two students. Try 20 or 30, with each one having their own strengths and weakness and even some medical/emotional issues to deal with as well. Sometimes it's all a teacher can do to simply maintain some form of order and try to teach something.

SWMBO started out as a first grade teacher and after just the first few days in the classroom she was ready to quit. Now she is an elementary principal and she's decided to go no higher because she wants to maintain contact with the kids. I agree with the comment that the upper echelon in the system is bloated and overpaid but it's not about to change.

I have predicted several times that public school system as we know it is doomed. The system cannot sustain itself with current funding and classroom staffing. Mix that with a large majority of parents that simply don't give a damn with the mentality of 'Here's my kid, you teach him and don't bug me about it because I pay taxes!', and expect a well rounded adult to pop out on the other end. Then they get all pissed off that Johnny can't read third grade material after graduation. Forget that Johnny was the class terrror, clown, etc. but the parents didn't want to get involved at all during the whole process. I can't tell you how many times my wife comes home really pissed that she had to call a parent about a kid hitting a teacher and the parent comes back with something like, 'don't bother me at work, I have a REAL job'. How's that for setting the example to the kid, who by the way knew that their mom or dad was going to say exactly those words BEFORE the call was placed.

Sorry, I'm ranting on like crazy but this subject really strikes a big nerve. I don't work for the school system but I gotten to deal with all the headaches that make it home and the phone ringing all evening long. The best part is that we CAN"T have an unlisted number because it's part of my wife's contract. So I get to answer the phone with some lunatic yelling at me about something I have NO control over. I actually had the superintendent call me up and tell me not to answer the phone for a few hours one night. He said that some lady (whose kid didn't even go to SWMBO's school) was calling everyone she could and cussing them out. Sure enough, about five minutes later the phone rang and the machine recorded this lady cussing up a blue streak. Why couldn't she have been an accountant or something nice and quiet that pays worth a damn.

[TexasPhil]

Russ,

Please re-read my messages I NEVER took a shot at the teachers. I admire the teachers with all my heart. I think the teachers are in a bad situation; they are under paid, over worked, while their bosses are getting rich and do very little towards actually helping the students. All the success of public school is rests at the feet of the teachers.

unfortunatly, the school system itself has become corrupt, from the top. Some of the principals are VERY good, but most above that level are not needed, and are very expensive. Our HS principle is one of the dumbest of people that roam the face of this planet, so I do not consider him an asset!

Not only is the local admin bad, but the state and feds are even worse. There is no need for the paperwork on programs like "head start" or "magnet school" to be as thick as three NYC phone books. That's what is required just to start up the program.

My problem is not with the teachers, but the entire system.

IT DOES NOT WORK!

As my school taxes go up (even though I don't benefit from it) I don't see more teachers, I don't see more activities, I don't see benefits for the kids or their education, nor do I see real pay raises for the teachers.. I see pay raises for the Admin, I see more benefits for the Admin, I see them cutting things like art and band.

This year, in Austin. Even though we are at an ALL TIME HIGH unemployment rate, and for the first time, more people are leaving than are coming, they have raised the school tax 7%. And they have cut art down to nearly nothing, band is not getting maintenance on their instruments, no new instruments, so it is frozen. Teachers are not getting a raise. School outings are cancelled this year... so where is the extra 7% going?

Another problem, as you have mentioned, is discipline. The schools are afraid of disciplining the kids for fear of lawsuits. But the families don't care, so they don't discipline either. Suspending them does no good, hey it is a vacation for the kid! No teacher, no parent... what do you call it?

I think the school should send these kids to court for some of their transactions. Defacing property: clean it up, then send them to juvy for 2 weeks. Then make the KID work off the cost of the damage. Hitting a teacher is ASSAULT, press charges!

I think the "school voucher" is a good idea, it puts some responsibility on the school. If the school isn't a good school, put your kid in another school and the bad school will lose money. So they will need to find a way to fix their problem, or they will have no kids. I just wish, as a home schooler, I could get a voucher for my books and coursework.

As far as your phone... I would hope that your SWMBO's contract has a stipulation about specific hours. It is not reasonable to get calls at 3am. I would recommend 2 phones, the second being unlisted. That number could be given out as her emergency number and the other as her prime. After 10 or 11pm, the first phone goes to answer machine only, which gives instructions of calling a dispacher in case of emergency, otherwise leave a message or call back during reasonable hours.

As the principal's spouse, I would NEVER touch the primary phone!

I am sorry for the ranting, but I feel strongly that the school system does not work, and is producing poorly educated kids on average. It does not meet the needs of the bright or the dim, and barely meets the needs of the average. It is a shame!

But I do not put blame on the majority of the teachers!

[Russ Sylvester]

I shouldn't have pointed that at you personally. I apologize. I sometimes get a little heated because I see most teachers and some administrators that really do care and work their butt off trying to make it work that get little recognition and even less pay.

I keep having to remind myself that throughout all of the problems that exist that the goal is for the kids. The vast majority of the kids and parents do care about the education and do get involved.

I also agree with you that school vouchers SHOULD count for home schoolers as well. This would help repay the school taxes like you say you pay but get nothing for.

As to the phone, we keep a machine on it and the ringer turned off. I use my cell as my primary phone.

It seems like schools nationwide are getting the short end of the stick. Low pay, overcrowded classrooms and the list goes on and on.